Free electric

[bugbear]

The big problem with smart meters though is that they are provider specific. Change your supplier and you need a new meter.

I'm on my second already.

What?!

I'd assumed (it appears wrongly) that it was part of the "network" side of the fence.

BugBear

 

[defsdoor]

You'd hope there was a standard that all the utility companies adhered to but when I switched in Jan OVO said that they couldn't make use of the existing smart meter (installed just over a year previously by EON). This might be because the EON meter was pre-standardisation as I know they had halted their roll out in anticipation of a new meter and IHD "coming soon" (colour display! Still not out)

The Gas meter talks to the electric meter (it has a battery that I'm told should last between 3 and 6 years) and the electric meter sends a text to OVO very infrequently to report the meter values (they don't need to know my usage that often after all.)

Then there is the home area network which talks to the In Home Device (portable - or not in mine's case) usage display.

The IHD cannot change anything on the meter (it's a meter - what is there to change? It doesn't have a master switch in it that can turn all power off, if it did it would have to be mechanical and it's far too small, and why would a master switch be controllable from the IHD ? the utilities don't have remote access to the IHD) So the only thrills a hacker would get from hacking the HAN would be to read the meter values. This isn't a high value target.

 

[RogerS]

..... to my knowledge, there isn't anything you can control/manipulate on the meter itself from this. .....

That's what every company who has ever been hacked said prior to the hack ! :wink:

That document you link to is pure theory - i.e. what could be open to attack - not what actually is based on any specific models.

It was written in 2010. A small group I belong to have done it but, no, I won't say which meter nor how they did it.

The HAN is local - so China can only attack it en-mass if they sit outside each and every house they want to target.

Nope, they can get in via the electricity company WAN that's the next layer up.

This is far less a risk than your home wifi etc.. as (pre-payment meters aside) there's not a lot you can do to a normal smart meter other than read the usage. You can't turn off power - even the provider doesn't have that legal right - regardless of arrears.

I admire your optimism. Yes they can disconnect you.

"If you don’t come to an agreement with your supplier to pay off your debt, they can apply to a court for a warrant to enter your home to disconnect your supply. Your supplier must send a notice telling you they’re applying to the court."

So flick of a switch and your smart meter is dead. And your electricity. Try getting through to nPower to fix it.

 

[bussy]

Evening all
2nd generation smart meters are due out September this year (SMETS2), these will be compatible across all suppliers.

 

[defsdoor]

"If you don’t come to an agreement with your supplier to pay off your debt, they can apply to a court for a warrant to enter your home to disconnect your supply. Your supplier must send a notice telling you they’re applying to the court."

So flick of a switch and your smart meter is dead. And your electricity. Try getting through to nPower to fix it.

When you say "flick of a switch" you mean - many months of protracted attempts to get payment, followed by a request to the court, entering your premises and physically removing the breaker that is before the meter ?

Then yeah you are clearly right to be paranoid about smart meters....

There is no means to turn off power in my smart meter.

 

[bussy]

Smart meters do have a remote disconnect function, although the regulator or courts would never allow the use of this, however assuming they can be hacked and i don't see why they can't, there would be nothing to stop the hacker disconnecting. Even if they were allowed to disconnect remotely they couldn't reconnect remotely because of the risk of fire.

marty

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I suspect the long term goal of utility suppliers is to have flexible pricing based on time and energy consumed - certainly in half hour units (as power is already traded wholesale) and possibly by the minute.

A large part of generation cost is maintaining capacity to meet maximum demand. More even consumption increases base loading in efficient plants, and more expensive quick response generation is reduced. There are also fundamental changes in consumption coming - eg: electric vehicles.

Current UK generation capacity is too close for comfort to maximum demand, leaving only a very small margin. Power cuts are a real risk over a harsh winter, especially if there are network failures. Nationally it may make more sense to install smart meters than built new power stations.

The cynic in me fears that a change to real time pricing is simply an opportunity to exploit the consumer, and sell domestic power control systems to optimise power usage/cost. OFGEN need to watch carefully.

Terry

 

[mind_the_goat]

Maybe I'm missing something here. While it would be possible to build a substantial disconnection device into a meter it would surely massively increase the cost compared to just fitting a measuring device. I can't see the main fuses being phased out of domestic supplies any time soon as they are relatively cheap.
As far connecting them up to the domestic network, I believe this is possible, and useful in an area with poor mobile coverage but would be subject to the home owner keeping the network up all the time and not changing the wireless password (and maybe allowing the home owner to hack the readings). The risk of it being used as a way in to your home network by a third party...well that's a risk every time you connect a new device.

 

[woodpig]

http://stopsmartmeters.org.uk

http://smartmeterdangers.org

http://es-uk.info/docs/front-02-ill-hea ... meters.pdf

http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topi ... -so-smart/

http://emfsafetynetwork.org/smart-meter ... omplaints/

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/01/22/-o ... ed-removed

 

[RogerS]

.... The risk of it being used as a way in to your home network by a third party...well that's a risk every time you connect a new device.

Correct, Rob. There is a risk in everything we do but we balance the benefit to us. For me I see no benefit in a smart meter and plenty of downside risk - for reasons already mentioned.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that the disconnection ability is already built-in as far as I have seen. The smart meter replaces your existing meter and so is directly in the circuit. And if you don't have enough credit, for example, then your OVO smart meter will disconnect you. Just like current pre-paid meters.

 

[RogerS]

"If you don’t come to an agreement with your supplier to pay off your debt, they can apply to a court for a warrant to enter your home to disconnect your supply. Your supplier must send a notice telling you they’re applying to the court."

So flick of a switch and your smart meter is dead. And your electricity. Try getting through to nPower to fix it.

When you say "flick of a switch" you mean - many months of protracted attempts to get payment, followed by a request to the court, entering your premises and physically removing the breaker that is before the meter ?

Then yeah you are clearly right to be paranoid about smart meters....

There is no means to turn off power in my smart meter.

Well, we'll have to agree to differ. I don't know how old you are but I have the grey hairs and experience to know that all the safeguards that you correctly state are there but that cock-ups still occur. Everywhere. So why run the risk ? If you want to play with developing a web display so that you can watch your smart meter from the other side of the world then that's your prerogative. Not for me.

 

[woodpig]

I forgot one.

http://www.bioinitiative.org/report/wp- ... ancers.pdf

 

[thetyreman]

I'm going to join, just so I can blast out some power every weekend and have a rave at my house, our road needs it right now.

 

[Robbo3]

Won't need that for a few years yet. The income from my solar panels is approximately double my usage.

 

[n0legs]

For clarity the existing prepay meters, key type and the older token meters can disconnect the supply. When the credit runs out off they go.
All done inside a not very big box without the need for big isolators.
Remote operation was a feature offered by the manufacturers for the smart meters, so my "inside man" told me :wink:

 

[Stanleymonkey]

I think you must be right
a quick mental arithmatic, I reckon we could easily rack up 60 Kwatts per 8 hour day in the winter (say 5 months)

2 X fan heaters
3 loads of washing & drying
load in the dishwasher
Immersion water heater (presently disconnected)
extra cooking in the electric oven

Heat up swimming pool?

BugBear

Think bigger - run out extension leads to all your neighbours and power the whole street! That would bugger them up!!

 

[lurker]

I am way ahead of you 8)

I am going to opt for Saturday and my neighbour Sunday
All we need is a couple of extensions

 

[RogerS]

Actually heating up a well-insulated swimming pool to use as a heat-source for later in the week isn't such a bad idea!