flattening a Japanese whetstone

[lurker]

In the UK

buying expensive stones is a bit pointless

I think I have maybe 15-20 stones mostly in boxes and mostly a good 100 years old and I have never ever paid for a single one.
Half are "inherited" from various sources the rest I given to me on the basis of "this was my dads/grandads/uncles/ and I know you will look after it and appreaciate it" (and I do). All work fine.
A purist might say "x stone is better", but its only a little bit better and a "million %" less value for money
I flatten (sorry Jacob!) them on a flat concrete slab in my path.

I bought a few of the trend diamonds we were buying up for £5 and I quite like them, but I would never consider paying full price however
I use bit of 3m lapping film on plate glass too, if the mood takes me.
And a leather strop & paste
And a bit of MDF with Autosol on it.

IMHO, anything else is just a fad swallowed by folks trying to "buy skill"

 

[Jacob]

.....One can just as easily (and just as accurately) complain thusly:

They are a lot of trouble these oilstones. Why bother?
An oilstone that clogs with oil? :shock:

.....

But they don't.
Unless you use the wrong oil, e.g. linseed. Mineral oils evaporate gradually. They leave the gunge behind so yes you do have to clean after use (quick wipe) and refresh the surface every now and then with a quick scrub down. Coarse wet n dry - or I use a 3m diapad which is bendy so it follows the dips and bumps. Only takes a few seconds - with white spirit or thin oil to float off the debris.

 

[Steve1066]

"Jnat" - new one for me! Had to look it up. Means Japanese natural stone apparently.
I'm into Britnats. They don't need "Cashew oil", also something I'd never heard of and won't be buying :lol:
I've also got a few yanknats.

They are a lot of trouble these Jnats. Why bother - it's like insisting on eating soup with (authentic) chopsticks?
A waterstone which breaks up in water? :shock:

the japanese stones are a cut above anything that has come out of the ground in the UK, perhaps with the exception of water of ayr. But water of ayr stones in full size now cost more than a very good quality japanese stone. I have a jones for an 8x2 WOA, but the last I saw one sell, they're about $300-$400. My jones is much less than that.

The trick with japanese stones is to buy one that's not collectible and get some instruction from someone who can spot a good one or provide a good one. For example, a stone that is 2 1/4 inches wide and 1 1/2 inches tall is considered to be an undesirable stone because it is too narrow. Same with one that is an inch or a little more too short. A superb user stone of that type can be had for $100 or so, but one of perfect size and thickness and other attributes may be 3 to 10 times as much (depending on what it is). The $100 stone will essentially be a stronger cutting version of an english hone slate, and one that provides a better edge for a given level of speed or fineness.

I don't seal the sides of my stones, but it definitely leads to longer life on some. I've never had one delaminate, but I've had coticules that crack (it's rare for old coticules to be crack free, though I'm sure they were sold defect free when new -especially if branded). I did have a large stone that I used and sold to someone else delaminate on that person several years after I sold it to them. They repaired it.

Long story short, they're a little better, and it's up to whoever is using them to decide if they're enough better.

Just like english stones, generally the stones below semi-finish and finish level stones are nothing to write home about. A $25 slurried soft arkansas stone is far superior for middle work, even on japanese tools.

You want to try I bit of Welsh slate. Cheep and abundant and every bit as good as a Japanese stone.

 

[bugbear]

buying expensive stones is a bit pointless

I think I have maybe 15-20 stones mostly in boxes and mostly a good 100 years old and I have never ever paid for a single one.
Half are "inherited" from various sources the rest I given to me on the basis of "this was my dads/grandads/uncles/ and I know you will look after it and appreaciate it" (and I do). All work fine.
A purist might say "x stone is better", but its only a little bit better and a "million %" less value for money

I don't know wether I'm a purist, and will admit that some of my stones have indeed cost infinitely more than your free ones.

As much as £4 in one case.

But I do have a large Belgian Coticule, a Cambrock Silkstone and hard Arkansas in more than one colour.

I think these would normally fall under the heading of "expensive stones" even if you're lucky enough to get them cheap.

Perhaps "top class" is a more useful description, and I suspect some of your free stones are top class too.

BugBear

 

[D_W]

bugbear is correct. a clean vintage 8x2 trans ark or black ark is a $100-$150 stone on the open market.

A large vintage natural combo coticule that is fine is also big money.

Not everyone buying stones is trying to buy skill. They are the one thing in the shop that I have that has nothing to do with competence - I just love sharpening stones. All of them work. Some are kind of doggish (like hindostan hones) for what they are, and others are exceptional (eschers, good japanese naturals, translucent arks, etc).

Never had any trouble getting things sharp with my first set of stones - king 800,1000,6000. But everything new is interesting - less so, though, if you're not into stones. I've gotten some cheap ones, too, but I usually buy what I want rather than what's cheap. Still just use a single washita for regular shop work, though.

 

[D_W]

You want to try I bit of Welsh slate. Cheep and abundant and every bit as good as a Japanese stone.

Have a purple slate, a small WOA bit and a darker fine slate from the UK. Thanks for the offer, though. They are good stones, the WOA is "vintage good". The newer stuff being mined is very good, though, too, just a step off of the vintage stuff.

the WOA is a specific want only because I use a straight razor and i sort of collect stones that are good for it. The purple slates being sold are decent for razors, but a step off of WOA. My WOA is only 1x5 inches, which is a bit inconvenient.

 

[Steve1066]

You want to try I bit of Welsh slate. Cheep and abundant and every bit as good as a Japanese stone.

Have a purple slate, a small WOA bit and a darker fine slate from the UK. Thanks for the offer, though. They are good stones, the WOA is "vintage good". The newer stuff being mined is very good, though, too, just a step off of the vintage stuff.

the WOA is a specific want only because I use a straight razor and i sort of collect stones that are good for it. The purple slates being sold are decent for razors, but a step off of WOA. My WOA is only 1x5 inches, which is a bit inconvenient.

That all a bit posh, mines an off cut from a slate windowsill. 3" bye 9"

 

[D_W]

Posh, I guess!!

Sharpening stones are available here at a good cost at flea markets, though. Especially if one is willing to use an india stone, some sort of ark stone and some honing compound. With some patience, you could have an entire setup of little used stones for less than $20.

We have hone slates here, too, but they're usually not as good as the UK hone slates. Novaculite is another matter, though!

 

[Steve1066]

I have only ever had 4 stone and still got 3 of them.

The coffin is my originals oil stone got it in 1992 the only tool have left from first tool kit the rest got stolen.
The slate was given to me in about 1995 by then boss / teacher he also taught me how to sharpen my tools.
Then some time around 2002 I got a Diamond plate wich died about two years ago, that's when I got the one you can see.
I find it quite faced fascinating the amount of time and money people spend on getting a sharp edge. Not that I have any problem with the way people sharpen their tools and method they use. I would rather spend my time and money on timber and making something.

 

[bugbear]

We have hone slates here, too, but they're usually not as good as the UK hone slates. Novaculite is another matter, though!

I think you got the better geological deal there, although the UK does have Charnley Forest, which is sort-of-novaculite.

BugBear

 

[D_W]

We have hone slates here, too, but they're usually not as good as the UK hone slates. Novaculite is another matter, though!

I think you got the better geological deal there, although the UK does have Charnley Forest, which is sort-of-novaculite.

BugBear

Yes, the charnley is a good stone, but variable. I think they're all generally good tool stones as long as they're used as finishers. I had one for razors, it worked reasonably well, a little softer than a trans ark.

The WOA and razor labeled Tams are also supposed to be good razor stones. my WOA is unlabeled, just a shard. Razor honing is something so infrequent, though, if a good vintage linen and some horse leather are available that it's not worth spending much on a razor stone. Thus, I'm out unless my wife kicks me out and I marry money.

 

[D_W]

I have only ever had 4 stone and still got 3 of them.

The coffin is my originals oil stone got it in 1992 the only tool have left from first tool kit the rest got stolen.
The slate was given to me in about 1995 by then boss / teacher he also taught me how to sharpen my tools.
Then some time around 2002 I got a Diamond plate wich died about two years ago, that's when I got the one you can see.
I find it quite faced fascinating the amount of time and money people spend on getting a sharp edge. Not that I have any problem with the way people sharpen their tools and method they use. I would rather spend my time and money on timber and making something.

I think most people aren't really chasing getting a sharp edge. You can do that with any stone. They're chasing finding stones that feel nice to use and get things sharp.

I'm chasing curiosity. Sharp is available for very cheap here, even if someone doesn't frequent boot sales. The dollar store has an al-ox combination hone, and combined with metal polish on a piece of MDF, you can get an edge as good as anything. It's not great to use, but I can get an excellent edge on a chisel in about three minutes with it. Enough to hang a hair on the edge of a chisel and then sever it.

Time isn't much of an issue, you can hunt down something on the internet when you're at your mother in laws. For the people spending large sums, I think they can probably afford stones and wood without too much issue.

 

[Steve1066]

I think most people are chasing that sharp edge. one they get to the hair off arm sharp they look to refine it, you just have to look through this forums, you know it's become an obsession when people start taking microscopic photos of the ends of they're chisels and plane blades to see what in perfections they get from different methods.
For me it's about quick turnaround 30 to 45 seconds and back to work. A tool has a job to do and it not to become the job.
Unless you're a tool maker and even then he makes the tool to do a job.
As I said fascinating. But I don't get it

 

[D_W]

You're probably right. That level of sharpness is transient in woodworking tools, though. I like the Washita better, the sharpness level feels very constant.

The stone chasing disease is worse on razor forums. When a razor is so sharp that it cuts off every bump on your face, that's too much.

But the feel of the good Japanese stones is just about like satin. It is the user experience that is increased, not necessarily the sharpness.