flattening a Japanese whetstone

[Jacob]

Using a steel doesn't really sharpen the edge, you just re-set and align the folded edge that is damaged through cutting and remove any burrs that form. It seems like it is being sharpened but you are not actually removing metal like you would with a stone.

Using a steel does really sharpen an edge, in the sense that when you use it after steeling, it will be sharper i.e.cut better.

It seems that sharpening enthusiasts have a different meaning for the word "sharpen".

Us ordinary tool and knife users don't need to take any notice of them!

 

[bugbear]

Using a steel doesn't really sharpen the edge, you just re-set and align the folded edge that is damaged through cutting and remove any burrs that form. It seems like it is being sharpened but you are not actually removing metal like you would with a stone.

The late Leonard Lee's photomicrographs disagree. You don't have to remove metal to make an edge sharper; see also
the Austrian technique for sharpening a scythe with a hammer. The metal is moved, not removed.

BugBear

 

[Rorschach]

Using a steel doesn't really sharpen the edge, you just re-set and align the folded edge that is damaged through cutting and remove any burrs that form. It seems like it is being sharpened but you are not actually removing metal like you would with a stone.

The late Leonard Lee's photomicrographs disagree. You don't have to remove metal to make an edge sharper; see also
the Austrian technique for sharpening a scythe with a hammer. The metal is moved, not removed.

BugBear

Semantics on the word sharpen then, I should probably use the word hone instead, but if you read my post you will see I am talking about exactly that, moving the edge to make it cut better.

 

[Beau]

Using a steel doesn't really sharpen the edge, you just re-set and align the folded edge that is damaged through cutting and remove any burrs that form. It seems like it is being sharpened but you are not actually removing metal like you would with a stone.

If they don't remove any metal how come they get covered in dark dust that looks suspiciously like metal after sharpening?

 

[bugbear]

Using a steel doesn't really sharpen the edge, you just re-set and align the folded edge that is damaged through cutting and remove any burrs that form. It seems like it is being sharpened but you are not actually removing metal like you would with a stone.

If they don't remove any metal how come they get covered in dark dust that looks suspiciously like metal after sharpening?

Many knife enthusiasts use totally smooth (polished) steels; they genuinely don't remove any metal at all. Turn of the century steels are a rather pretty polygonal shape, polished all over.

Some modern steels are (as you imply) really files, and (further muddying the semantic waters) some
very modern steels are in fact "diamond plates that are the same shape as a steel", if you see what I mean.

BugBear

 

[Beau]

Using a steel doesn't really sharpen the edge, you just re-set and align the folded edge that is damaged through cutting and remove any burrs that form. It seems like it is being sharpened but you are not actually removing metal like you would with a stone.

If they don't remove any metal how come they get covered in dark dust that looks suspiciously like metal after sharpening?

Many knife enthusiasts use totally smooth (polished) steels; they genuinely don't remove any metal at all. Turn of the century steels are a rather pretty polygonal shape, polished all over.

Some modern steels are (as you imply) really files, and (further muddying the semantic waters) some
very modern steels are in fact "diamond plates that are the same shape as a steel", if you see what I mean.

BugBear

Ah thanks BugBear. So the "steels" in many a kitchen draw are not really steels.

Sorry Swagman for contributing to sidetracking your thread

 

[D_W]

Using a steel doesn't really sharpen the edge, you just re-set and align the folded edge that is damaged through cutting and remove any burrs that form. It seems like it is being sharpened but you are not actually removing metal like you would with a stone.

If they don't remove any metal how come they get covered in dark dust that looks suspiciously like metal after sharpening?

Many knife enthusiasts use totally smooth (polished) steels; they genuinely don't remove any metal at all. Turn of the century steels are a rather pretty polygonal shape, polished all over.

Some modern steels are (as you imply) really files, and (further muddying the semantic waters) some
very modern steels are in fact "diamond plates that are the same shape as a steel", if you see what I mean.

BugBear

I use a f.fdick polished steel on those soft knives. Until they actually need resharpening, most of the damage on the edges is just metal that needs to be realigned.

I'd prefer to keep sharpening or more specifically honing separate from steeling, but serrated steels are the norm at most retailers here.

The Japanese knives stay sharp for about as long as the actual honing interval on a Western knife.

 

[Rorschach]

Using a steel doesn't really sharpen the edge, you just re-set and align the folded edge that is damaged through cutting and remove any burrs that form. It seems like it is being sharpened but you are not actually removing metal like you would with a stone.

If they don't remove any metal how come they get covered in dark dust that looks suspiciously like metal after sharpening?

They are not intended to remove metal, proper ones anyway.

 

[D_W]

Some of those euro knives that are saw temper or just above just don't warrant that kind of attention, though.

"Those euro knives" form a practical integrated cutting system when allied with a properly used butcher's steel.

In this model, sharpening is an every coupla' minutes deal, but only take 2-3 seconds, completely
different to the ritual of honing a hard blade on a sequence of stones.

BugBear

I agree with that (as mentioned above using a polished steel). I didn't want to go that far down the rabbit hole with knives, but since we went there..i steel the wife's knives a dozen or two times between honing (they'd get more if it was me using the knives).

I have two henckels knives and two wusthof, and then some cheaper knives. The Henckel's are friodur and 440C, and are a little harder. The Wusthof knives are newer and made of a medium carbon steel x.somethign.0.5, and are soft even compared to the friodur. they do steel well, I guess they have chosen to knock them down a notch vs. the older stuff like friodur and old carbon steel knives so that they'll be easier for people with serrated steels.

The steeling is just another reason to stop with a broken in diamond hone - the steel controls the ultimate sharpness level, anyway. Anything above it is transient and gone quickly.

I don't have super hard japanese knives, just low end ones that are spec 60-62 hardness, and find them plenty hard. They get sharpened about as often as the german knives, maybe less, and are sharper for the entire cycle. i finish them on natural stones, but not in an anal retentive way (a hard arkansas or a suita, depending on what's closest).

(I wouldn't get the wife knives that couldn't be steeled. Knives that can't be steeled also are knives that will chip when they are abused. the steelable knives just fold and can be steeled back to shape until there is a lot of blunt wear).

 

[swagman]

#

 

[swagman]

#

 

[Jacob]

"Jnat" - new one for me! Had to look it up. Means Japanese natural stone apparently.
I'm into Britnats. They don't need "Cashew oil", also something I'd never heard of and won't be buying :lol:
I've also got a few yanknats.

They are a lot of trouble these Jnats. Why bother - it's like insisting on eating soup with (authentic) chopsticks?
A waterstone which breaks up in water? :shock:

 

[bugbear]

I'm into Britnats.

Nothing natural about an India stone. I'm not sure which country they're made in.

BugBear

 

[D_W]

I'm into Britnats.

Nothing natural about an India stone. I'm not sure which country they're made in.

BugBear

Mexico these days. Mexnonats!

 

[Jacob]

What about Scotsnats?

 

[bugbear]

I'm into Britnats.

Nothing natural about an India stone. I'm not sure which country they're made in.

BugBear

Mexico these days. Mexnonats!

Mexosynths, surely?

BugBear

 

[D_W]

Perhaps, if that's not already taken by Mexican made electric piano manufacturers.

 

[lurker]

What about Scotsnats?

That'll be a Waters of Aire

Is a Tam O' Shanter a Nat or Synth

 

[D_W]

"Jnat" - new one for me! Had to look it up. Means Japanese natural stone apparently.
I'm into Britnats. They don't need "Cashew oil", also something I'd never heard of and won't be buying :lol:
I've also got a few yanknats.

They are a lot of trouble these Jnats. Why bother - it's like insisting on eating soup with (authentic) chopsticks?
A waterstone which breaks up in water? :shock:

the japanese stones are a cut above anything that has come out of the ground in the UK, perhaps with the exception of water of ayr. But water of ayr stones in full size now cost more than a very good quality japanese stone. I have a jones for an 8x2 WOA, but the last I saw one sell, they're about $300-$400. My jones is much less than that.

The trick with japanese stones is to buy one that's not collectible and get some instruction from someone who can spot a good one or provide a good one. For example, a stone that is 2 1/4 inches wide and 1 1/2 inches tall is considered to be an undesirable stone because it is too narrow. Same with one that is an inch or a little more too short. A superb user stone of that type can be had for $100 or so, but one of perfect size and thickness and other attributes may be 3 to 10 times as much (depending on what it is). The $100 stone will essentially be a stronger cutting version of an english hone slate, and one that provides a better edge for a given level of speed or fineness.

I don't seal the sides of my stones, but it definitely leads to longer life on some. I've never had one delaminate, but I've had coticules that crack (it's rare for old coticules to be crack free, though I'm sure they were sold defect free when new -especially if branded). I did have a large stone that I used and sold to someone else delaminate on that person several years after I sold it to them. They repaired it.

Long story short, they're a little better, and it's up to whoever is using them to decide if they're enough better.

Just like english stones, generally the stones below semi-finish and finish level stones are nothing to write home about. A $25 slurried soft arkansas stone is far superior for middle work, even on japanese tools.

 

[ED65]

They are a lot of trouble these Jnats. Why bother - it's like insisting on eating soup with (authentic) chopsticks?
A waterstone which breaks up in water? :shock:

One can just as easily (and just as accurately) complain thusly:

They are a lot of trouble these oilstones. Why bother?
An oilstone that clogs with oil? :shock:

Nothing's perfect, meaning nearly every choice we make represents some type of compromise. Your own favourite rust inhibitor has plenty of issues but that doesn't stop you preferring to use it, but they are what will put someone else off.