Flattening a Hard Silicon Carbide Honing Stone

[Steve Voigt]

This is even more asinine than the fellow who ruined his DMT flattening his SiC stone. Unfortunately Steve, you're showing how poorly read you really are -- all of this and more is either in the nine editions of Planecraft published from the 1930s to 1980s or in one of Charles Hayward's many books, Wells & Hooper, Joyce, Joyce as revised and expanded by Alan Peters, Wearing, et al. I'm not sure how you've determined that these techniques were (or were not) 'commonly taught and practiced' and where these deficiencies actually occurred but these are not the techniques memorialized in the better 20th century woodworking handbooks, all of which should be in your library but apparently are not.

It's as if you are asserting that all of these books were written, most in at least two, three or more editions, and they never sold a copy and nobody ever used them, and they referred to technique nobody would recognize.

Dear me you had some dreadful teachers! I must have been lucky I claim no credit.

Charlie,

Note that I said "taught and practiced." In fairness, I probably should have said taught or practiced. I made no mention of reputable writers like Hayward, who I've already cited in this thread. Of the 6 points I listed, the first three can be confirmed by looking at old stones and tools, and Jacob has regularly used this as evidence for his point of view, which you've repeatedly supported. Point 4 has been discussed ad nauseum on forums and I'm not going to repeat that. The last two points can be found in plenty of sources. I stand by what I wrote.

And with that, I think I'll take my leave. On every other forum I've ever been on, the moderators moderated. They were neutral and restrained; they never belittled or bullied or berated the participants, or called them "asinine" or "absurd." It's a nice tag team Jacob and you have going, sort of a good cop/ bad cop thing, but it sure poisons the whole atmosphere. I appreciate that I had a chance to make my point; now I'll leave it up to others to decide for themselves. Besides, I have planes to make.

 

[Trafalgar]

When I saw your name attached to that list I thought to myself who or what has taken possession of Steve Voigt.

I sure am sorry. Something has gone of the rails my friend.

My responses are in blue to your list:

"If we look at the techniques that were commonly taught and practiced in the mid-20th c., we'd see that most (not all) woodworkers:"

- rarely flattened stones and often used badly hollowed ones. Stones have two sides; one is almost always flat. There is virtually no reason to keep both sides flat, nor is it necessarily desirable to do so.
- routinely rounded or dubbed the backs of tools. So what? It's a back bevel on a plane iron or a knife edge like carvers use on the majority of their chisels. They cut great. Try it sometime. If you told a carver a knife-edge chisel wouldn't work he'd laugh his fanny off.
- used convex bevels or eclipse-style guides. All woodworkers are not bench woodworkers. They needed a technique for the field when a grinding facility was not available.
- had no idea how chipbreakers worked. The math in the the table found in all NINE editions of Planecraft spanning the shank of the entire 20th century clearly implies a setting of 1/64" to 1/128" if you can follow the simple mathematical progression. 1/128" is almost exactly the middle range of Kato & Kawai when you convert millimeters. Otherwise, there are too many references to 'as close as you can get it to the cutting edge to even list. Total nonstarter.
- used shoulder or router planes to pare tenons (after deliberately sawing them fat). Not as a normal routine, but as a fix. No different than Frid or Klausz showing how to fix a gappy dovetail. Stuff happens, you cut rich you cut lean and need a fix when you do. Robt. Wearing presents this technique, but again as a fix. He explicitly and unequivocally stresses the importance of tenons fitting off the saw and he does this in two of his books.
- chopped mortises undersize and then pared them to size. Not sure where you've come up with this. I've never read anything but set a gauge off the chisel and mark mortise and tenon with it. Completely precludes what you're asserting other than for perhaps when a mortise is bored then pared but in this instance you use the mortise to mark the tenon width. So, still can't imagine where this is coming from, I've never read or heard this suggested from any source.

 

[swagman]

This is even more asinine than the fellow who ruined his DMT flattening his SiC stone.

Charles; for someone who is so confident within his own abilities you sure lack a lot of spunk when it comes to exhibiting examples of your own work. If I recall; the excuse you gave last time was you had no idea how to attach photo's to a thread; advise was given; you then posted 2 photo's; one of you dressed up as a church leader; and the other was of you standing beside your work bench. No relevance to what was being asked of you.

Stewie;

 

[Trafalgar]

I'm sorry. My rhetoric was too rough. I really am sorry.

 

[swagman]

I'm sorry. My rhetoric was too rough. I really am sorry.

Charles; for someone who is so confident within his own abilities you sure lack a lot of spunk when it comes to exhibiting examples of your own work. If I recall; the excuse you gave last time was you had no idea how to attach photo's to a thread; advise was given; you then posted 2 photo's; one of you dressed up as a church leader; and the other was of you standing beside your work bench. No relevance to what was being asked of you.

Stewie;

 

[Jacob]

.....Jacob has regularly used this as evidence for his point of view, .....

The principle evidence for my point of view is that the technique works very well and is cheap, quick, etc. That's good enough for me.

I do think it's a great pity that some so simple techniques have been overthrown and turned into a techy shopping spree.

 

[bugbear]

I do think it's a great pity that some so simple techniques have been overthrown and turned into a techy shopping spree.

And I take good photographs with a second hand £35 quid from eBay camera - I didn't just rush out and buy an expensive DSLR.

How's that titanium and carbon fibre bike working out for you?

And all those musical instruments you freely admit you can't play very well?

I think you should stop commenting on other people's shopping habits.

Pot, kettle and all that.

BugBear

 

[essexalan]

As Jim Kingshott said " The novice should experiment with different methods, keep an open mind and be prepared to try out new ideas. One should not be influenced by what other people state as the correct and only way to obtain a sharp edge. The method that works best for you is the one to use". I made the move to water stones from oil stones about 40 years ago and have stuck with them. I did play around with Scary Sharp but it wasn't for me. I suppose if I had a grinder then I would have tried hollow grinds but hard to justify the expense just for an increase in speed. There really isn't a silver bullet for this very simple process of just removing metal using an abrasive surface.
SiC #60 grit is indeed very handy to have around not least for flattening chisel and plane iron backs, yes I call them backs because my Dad called them backs ;0).

 

[ED65]

Reluctant as I am to step foot in this thread again I want to post a correction of sorts on one point.

Otherwise, there are too many references to 'as close as you can get it to the cutting edge to even list. Total nonstarter.

This was not nearly as universal as you're saying here and as a limited (cherry-picked?) sample of sources would allow one to safely infer.

As I mentioned in passing recently, after the endless back and forth in the thread on the loss (or not) of the knowledge of the correct way to use a cap iron I set myself a project: to peruse every woodworking book I have access to, in paper and electronic form, for any and all information they contained about the setting of the cap iron. Obviously I was particularly looking for any detailed guidance on close setting for "difficult woods", "cross-grained or complex-grained boards", "[where] the grain [is] the least unfavourable".

This wasn't a I'll just have a look at a few books..., I started in December and the last update was at the beginning of June.

So I can with some confidence state that, from the 19th century through to the mid-20th advice on how to set the cap iron as needed (if any was given at all) was extremely variable and in fact taken together is downright contradictory. But most importantly, only a handful said "as close to the edge as you can get" or any words to that effect.

 

[Jacob]

I do think it's a great pity that some so simple techniques have been overthrown and turned into a techy shopping spree.

I didn't just rush out and buy an expensive DSLR.

Nor me. Several ebay cameras over the years.

How's that titanium and carbon fibre bike working out for you?

Just did Sea to Sea (aka C2C) Whitehaven to Tynmouth via Alston. Back via Keilder Water and Solway firth. Very enjoyable. You ought to get a bike BB I'm sure it'd do you good.

And all those musical instruments you freely admit you can't play very well?

Practice practice - getting better every day!

I think you should stop commenting on other people's shopping habits...

OK I realise that sharpening is a hobby in it's own right, but my remarks are generally for woodworkers who just want to get on and do woodwork.
It's not easy to get simple advice - the enthusiasts tend to dominate, and the commercial interests of course.
There's enormous pressure to buy stupid stuff and waste a lot of time and money

 

[iNewbie]

OK I realise that sharpening is a hobby in it's own right, but my remarks are generally for woodworkers who just want to get on and do woodwork.
It's not easy to get simple advice - the enthusiasts tend to dominate, and the commercial interests of course.
There's enormous pressure to buy stupid stuff and waste a lot of time and money

The only pressure is your biased view having been sucked into the spendy world yourself and crusading over your fatal error ever since - and now everyone and their goat has too pay for it in regurgitation. We get it. Relax, flatten a carborundum or something.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

If Steve Voigt has truly gone for good, then some here ought to be ashamed of themselves, and perhaps the moderators should do something. Some of the remarks made were a bit too personal and name calling, and were not about logically putting a differing point of view across. I think Steve might have been a useful addition to the forum, being a tool maker and all, contributing to a hand tool forum, we should have done our best to keep him interested.

The gist of what he was saying, was that hand skills were at their zenith before anyone here wes trained, and doing a course in the 1980's is no recommendation as to how things were done or should be done. ironically Charlie and others in previous forums said things like 'the finest work was done by Georgian furniture makers and we should emulate their methods' which is precisely what Steve was saying, and yet somehow Charlie seems to have chased him away. I don't think anyone here, apart from Jacob, is saying that a flat portion of a stone is not necessary, or taken to its obvious conclusion, keeping a flat stone for when needed or even flattening a stone once in a while. It all amounts to the same thing; for backing off the burr, we need something flat to do it. So why did anyone have to be insulted enough to leave, when everybody, except Jacob, is saying essentially the same, with just a variation of degree. Even Stewie, the OP was trying to be helpful by pointing out that diamond stones are not the way to keep a SiC stone flat, and was completely vilified about making a mistake and ruining a diamond plate, when in fact he was trying to be helpful.

Finally, Jacob despite repeating ad nauseum about unnecessary flattening, cannot find a single person or piece of literature to back the claim. Even Paul Sellers shows pictures of his tools with flat, mirror polished backs, keeps diamond plates for flattening so that any dishing on his sharpening stones don't prevent him from flattening and advises, to avoid flattening stones, a separate fine stone is kept just for backing off. He even disagrees about Jacob's statement about modern sharpening being some crazy fad. Interesting, that!

All we can conclude is that sharpening is all about getting the edge that will work by abrading it. It can be achieved by minor variances in technique, but that is all. If someone flattens a stone to get the edge he or she needs, as opposed to someone using the stones side, or keeping a separate stone, what of it?

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

......
Finally, Jacob despite repeating ad nauseum about unnecessary flattening, cannot find a single person or piece of literature to back the claim.....

Not true. According to Steve Voigt Holtzapffel agrees with me; vol.3 (1850), p.1142, t "even distribution of wear" is important. Which is all I'm saying. You just need to evenly distribute wear, to a greater or lesser extent according to what you do. If you need to flatten you have been doing it wrong.

 

[D_W]

I think there is a passage in holtzapffel that mentions cretans and suggests that craftsmen will sometimes true them several times in one day if they are using them heavily.

 

[D_W]

Reluctant as I am to step foot in this thread again I want to post a correction of sorts on one point.

Otherwise, there are too many references to 'as close as you can get it to the cutting edge to even list. Total nonstarter.

This was not nearly as universal as you're saying here and as a limited (cherry-picked?) sample of sources would allow one to safely infer.

As I mentioned in passing recently, after the endless back and forth in the thread on the loss (or not) of the knowledge of the correct way to use a cap iron I set myself a project: to peruse every woodworking book I have access to, in paper and electronic form, for any and all information they contained about the setting of the cap iron. Obviously I was particularly looking for any detailed guidance on close setting for "difficult woods", "cross-grained or complex-grained boards", "[where] the grain [is] the least unfavourable".

This wasn't a I'll just have a look at a few books..., I started in December and the last update was at the beginning of June.

So I can with some confidence state that, from the 19th century through to the mid-20th advice on how to set the cap iron as needed (if any was given at all) was extremely variable and in fact taken together is downright contradictory. But most importantly, only a handful said "as close to the edge as you can get" or any words to that effect.

When these discussions started in 2012, Charlie posted that he was going to give the method a try (it's probably archived on woodcentral). He came up with all of these things he knew about it later.

It's apparent he's still not good at setting it because he's full of suggestions of other substitute methods that take more time and that are less effective.

 

[Trafalgar]

To say that fine hand tool skills "died" insults an awfully large number of 20th century fine furniture makers, a lot of whom are British. These kinds of statements are beyond hyperbole and ridiculous on their face. One might not have an affinity for the particular STYLES of furniture coming out of this period, but its extraordinary execution which more often than not relied on highly developed fine hand tool and other manual skills is simply not even debatable. People who think otherwise are profoundly uninformed, have oddly wild imaginations, weird internet forum agendas, or a good bit of all three. Somehow, whether or not a certain craftsman/artist every uttered using a very close cap iron to prepare a surface for a finish, to the exclusion of all other techniques, has come to be the measure of the man or woman's work. It's so laughable, and sad, and sad that people buy into this tripe and give it any credence whatsoever. We have to skin a cat THIS WAY, or not at all. This narrative seems to have had a strong affect on the toolmakers around and about. I guess that's understandable, but getting a little strained at this point in my opinion.

 

[Beau]

As Jim Kingshott said " The novice should experiment with different methods, keep an open mind and be prepared to try out new ideas. One should not be influenced by what other people state as the correct and only way to obtain a sharp edge. The method that works best for you is the one to use".

Great bit of advise =D>

 

[D_W]

To say that fine hand tool skills "died" insults an awfully large number of 20th century fine furniture makers, a lot of whom are British. These kinds of statements are beyond hyperbole and ridiculous on their face. One might not have an affinity for the particular STYLES of furniture coming out of this period, but its extraordinary execution which more often than not relied on highly developed fine hand tool and other manual skills is simply not even debatable. People who think otherwise are profoundly uninformed, have oddly wild imaginations, weird internet forum agendas, or a good bit of all three. Somehow, whether or not a certain craftsman/artist every uttered using a very close cap iron to prepare a surface for a finish, to the exclusion of all other techniques, has come to be the measure of the man or woman's work. It's so laughable, and sad, and sad that people buy into this tripe and give it any credence whatsoever. We have to skin a cat THIS WAY, or not at all. This narrative seems to have had a strong affect on the toolmakers around and about. I guess that's understandable, but getting a little strained at this point in my opinion.

I'm not sure who uses the term "died". The rest of the stuff of "the only measure" is pure fantasy.

Do your breathing exercises, Charlie.

 

[D_W]

I prefer a flat stone.

Oil stones like a Norton might be cheap enough in the US for them be viewed as a disposable item but In the UK they are £30 (about $ 36 US) as mentioned already. Plus the fact that people in the UK are on average less well off than Americans in buying power, a new Norton oilstone is definitely not cheap in the UK.

I've read about rubbing on concrete or tarmac etc to flatten but isn't silicon carbide or alu oxide much harder, so I had my doubts. But how about rubbing two dished stones together? Or using a bench grinder to flatten?

A bench grinder might be dangerous (but with a coarse hard wheel might work, especially since you can dress it as the stone grades the surface).

I have flattened a lot of natural stones (but not carborundum stones) that are way out of flat against the hard idler on the end of a belt sander (So that the contact point is a thin line instead of a long flat platen), and a very coarse belt. A particulate mask is a must doing something like that, at least with stones that have silica in them. Something like a washita that's been hollowed 1/8th or more can have the ends worked off flat with that method in about ten minutes, including cleanup. And then you can move on with an almost flat stones (final flattening still has to be done, another 5 or 10 minutes).

If I were going to try a silicon carbide stone, I'd use coarser silicon carbide so as to break the bond of the carborundum on the stone without grading the stone finer, or try a very coarse belt on a belt sander. Here, we can get budget coarse belts for about a dollar each, and one of those dollar belts would do about three natural stones. If you burned out two on a carborundum stone, it wouldn't be a big deal cost-wise. (this is a 4x36 stationary benchtop sander - a device that is not very useful otherwise).

 

[swagman]

And with that, I think I'll take my leave. On every other forum I've ever been on, the moderators moderated. They were neutral and restrained; they never belittled or bullied or berated the participants, or called them "asinine" or "absurd." It's a nice tag team Jacob and you have going, sort of a good cop/ bad cop thing, but it sure poisons the whole atmosphere. I appreciate that I had a chance to make my point; now I'll leave it up to others to decide for themselves. Besides, I have planes to make.

Steve makes a very valid point. On other forums this type of behaviour would not have been tolerated.

Stewie;