Files and Filing

[johnnyb]

Great write up! My own apprenticeship was at Royal ordinance and involved 2 weeks making a "filing test piece" . It was 1986 and we were the last apprentices taken on. We learned stuff that tbh was hopelessly outdated 5years after leaving cnc was the buzzword not filing test piece. Perfect.

 

[johnnyb]

PS all my best files are tome feteira portugal.!

 

[AES]

Once again, thanks for all the thanks folks. So far no one has said "It's too long/boring". Perhaps they couldn't be bothered to post!

@ johnnyb. I've never heard of feteira - thanks.

@heimlaga & jonnyb: Yes, I freely admit that I'm most probably miles out of date! A lot of the files in my collection I inherited when my Dad died (1970s), and at a guess, he was buying such stuff from the 1930s onwards. Also, I had a brief "loose connection" with Sandvik in the 1970s which also "supplied" (!) a number of files in my collection.

I freely admit that not having lived in UK since the mid 1980s I have no idea what's available there these days - and I have precisely NIL knowledge of what's available in Finland, sorry.

But that Baiter set I showed in the write up was available here (Switzerland) about 10 years ago, and at a guess, I think they're still manufacturing files. But I don't know if they export at all - I don't even know who & where they are. But Vallorbe definitely does still make at least Swiss and needle files - I'm NOT pushing Swiss brands, but simply speaking about what I see in my local tools shop.

But as I suggested in my write up, I guess that files are generally less common these days than they were.

I don't really know, sorry. Personally I doubt I'll need to buy any files in my lifetime.

AES

Edit for P.S. I've never heard of Pferd either, so thanks for that heimlaga (as I'm sure you know, "Pferd" means horse). Hence "PS" for rating engine power ("Pferde Stark" = horsepower).

 

[johnnyb]

My guess is the sandvik will be made by tome feteira. I guess portugal is first world enough to make good uns but backward enough to be able to pay peanuts to the pool of skilled workers that make these things. Old English/american files in comparison are to soft with a loss of bite. Modern technology old skills. I've Lways found milenicut files to be outstanding with horn and hardwood especially if you sharpen them with a diamond card.
Jb

 

[AES]

OK, thanks. I've said in the past (not on this subject) that although I may regret the out-sourcing of work to low-cost countries (from a socio-economic viewpoint), as far as I can see, from a technical viewpoint, there's no reason at all why out-sourced items can't be just as good as the originally-produced items. PROVIDED that is that A) material specs, and any heat treatments, etc, are as per original spec; B) that the manufacturing process/s are as per original; and that assembly (if any) and QC are all correctly performed.

The problem is that often (NOT always in my experience) either the original manufacturer does not monitor any/all of the above fully enough; and/or the "bean counters" have got at the production and in a "value engineering" exercise, have "down-spec'd" stuff like materials, fasteners, etc, etc.

We're on to another subject area here anyway really - but as just one example of what I mean, my Excalibur scroll saw was made in Taiwan (under contract to General International of Canada?) but as far as I can tell, it's every bit as good as if it had been made in Canada, as they were originally. It will certainly out-last my life time (but at 72 years old, that's probably not such a HUGE claim)!

One last point - as a lad growing up in the 1940s/50s I well remember my Dad bemoaning the "carp" often produced by then current UK manufacturers ("fings ain't what they used ter be").

Drift, sorry.

AES

Edit for P.S. I've never had a Millenicut file, sorry, so "dunno".

 

[johnnyb]

One example where I was wrong about outsourcing was £1 brollies. I used to rant and say they are a waste of resources because the first gust turned them inside out. It was only on a visit to Hong Kong I realised these were sun brollies! It was just strong enough for it's job. It's just it's job was not a rain brollie.
Jb

 

[Robbo3]

especially if you sharpen them with a diamond card.
Jb

Which leads to how do you sharpen them & how do you tell if they are blunt, especially if you can't try them eg at a car boot sale?

 

[johnnyb]

You want a millenicut file and a thin diamond card I use ezelap. The file is best new but can be used but not damaged chipped or rusty. Then two stroke on the top face look for the shine on the edge one stroke on the front. On all the teeth. Best to use glove or wrap the file with tape as they are sharp. Then file away. End grain hardwood bone and horn are like butter. And highly polished to.axminster sell Japanese carving files that are similar in use. Vary the angle to achieve the best result.

 

[AES]

As you can see, "CHJ" (Chas) has kindly joined my 4 separate parts together, and in response to several requests, has also made this whole thing a sticky - i.e. it will be fixed at the top of this General Metalworking section "forever".

Thanks Chas

AES

 

[Keith 66]

Excellent article on files & filing, made me remember a lot of what i had learnt at school & forgotten. Also how useless todays school practical? lessons are.
One thing about different materials, If you are making jewellery & using silver you must on no account use files on silver that have been used on pewter or lead, the lead has a strong affinity for silver & any particles on the file will contaminate your silver parts leading to their ruin when you solder them together.

 

[AES]

Thanks for the positive comments Keith 66. I'm glad you found it useful.

There'll be a follow up on hacksawing (and other metal cutting methods & tools) to come soon.

Re your comments on silver versus lead/pewter, thanks for that. Thinking about it, that makes complete sense, but never having done any jewellery making, I didn't know that before, & didn't even think about it

Q: Do you use the "modern" diamond files for jewellery too? If so any comments you have (pos or neg) would be most welcome, 'cos like jewellery, I've never used them (except V fine ones for just touching up lathe tool tips).

Cheers

AES

 

[Keith 66]

Im not an expert by any means, i learnt a bit from a technician i worked with who was an acomplished silversmith of awesome skill. I believe the modern diamond files are sometimes used but the rule keeping files for separate materials still applies.

 

[AES]

OK, thanks for the info.

Happy Christmas

AES

 

[patrickjchase]

Theese days there as far as I know only two decent file makers in the world.
-Pferd in Germany
-Sandvik nowadays in Portugal

Corradi in Italy is very good, and actually makes a lot of the files that Pferd sells. For example the "Pferd Swiss-Pattern Corinox" files are all made in Italy by Corradi ("Corinox" is a Corradi trademark)

Grobet-Vallorbe in Switzerland makes very good files, including ones sold under the labels of other makers. For example, needle files branded as "Nicholson", "Bahco", "Grobet Swiss" and "Vallorbe" are all identically made and appear to come from the same (UVM-Vallorbe) Swiss factory.

Bahco is a conglomerate that includes Sandvik and Oberg and probably others.

Blu-Dan in Austria makes good files under both their own label and for others. For example I have a box of "Ultra Chrome" ski files that I purchased a while back that are rebranded Blu-Dans and quite good (similar Rc72 coating hardness to Valtitan/Corinox).

 

[patrickjchase]

My guess is the sandvik will be made by tome feteira. I guess portugal is first world enough to make good uns but backward enough to be able to pay peanuts to the pool of skilled workers that make these things. Old English/american files in comparison are to soft with a loss of bite. Modern technology old skills. I've Lways found milenicut files to be outstanding with horn and hardwood especially if you sharpen them with a diamond card.
Jb

Tome Feteira manufactures tools for Blu-Dan (nominally an Austrian maker) but I'm not aware of them doing the same for Sandvik.

Sandvik and Bahco are part of the US-based Snap-On group, and have pretty heavily globalized supply chains. Most of their files continue to be pretty decent though iMO. I use their mill and saw files quite a lot.

 

[AES]

Thanks for the extra info Patrick. I had a brief association with Sandvik in the early '70s and visited their factory in Sweden. Also Bahco, and Oberg. At that time all three were separate companies, in separate towns, but all three Swedish. Sandvik was the biggest, and as well as saws, they made a lot of machine tooling.

But that was then, and as with so many other areas of trade & industry, all sorts of conglomerations, takeovers, and joint ventures have happened in the tools business.

So thanks for the extra info - I'd not heard of the others you mentioned until your post, but as this whole thread is now a sticky, your info is there for others to find. Thanks.

AES

 

[Robbo3]

Our woodturning club has an American visitor every year from the Los Angeles area.
He tells us that a member of his local club runs a business that sharpens files (he thinks) by blasting them with a water/sand jet.
It's a father & son business & the technique was developed by themselves.
The owner takes files from club members, sharpens them, rejecting any not suitable, then posts them back along with an invoice. The costs are cheaper than buying a replacement file.
A search produced Boggs Tool Sharpening which seems to fit with the information given.
Any one have any further knowledge?

 

[AES]

Sorry for delayed response Robbo (& all) but I've been away from my "confuser" for some weeks. Personally I haven't heard of the water jet process (but that only means that I haven't heard of it before). It seems to me that in theory at least this should work as well as the fairly common weak acid dip/strong wire brushing method. But please note that such ideas only work if the file has been damaged by a rust coating, or dead paint and other gunge.

AFAIK, IF the teeth themselves have lost their edge or have chipped badly (please do NOT let your files bang together - sorry, hobby horse!) then at best all you'll get from that process with a worn turnip, etc cut file is new file that may do some duty as a smooth cut tool - WITH the risk of a scratchy surface finish.

BUT, as said, that's only what I've heard.

HTH.

 

[Robbo3]

Had a visit from the American turner today & he confirmed that the company is run by the Boggs family - https://boggstool.com/
He has kindly taken two of my old clapped out files to see if they can be restored.
I should get them back in about a year!

 

[marcros]

AES, or anybody

Could you add to this thread with any comments about the use of files on a lathe? Are the same files used as described above, or are there dedicated lathe files? I am thinking for use on ferrous and non ferrous metals, as well as engineering plastics, acrylics or ebonite.

Thanks
Mark