Fed up with the hyperbole of the referendum?

[Phil Pascoe]

Norway would give you free health care because od reciprocal arrangements - why would a European Country without free health care have any arrangement to pay for its expats? You seem to have a paranoid dislike of the right wing press - you're not like one or two others here that only believe something if they've read it in the Grauniad, are you?

 

[BearTricks]

To clarify my comment about xenophobia: it seems to be a base level at which some people are deciding their vote. If there are two groups of people - one of which is uninformed but has vague ideas about dangerous folk from the East, and the other of which is uninformed but doesn't see immigration as necessarily dangerous, I believe that the former will be more spurred on to vote.

Another thing that worries me, aside from the potential of increased travel prices, is the fact that students from the UK can currently study for free in a number of EU countries because we are in the EU. This wouldn't be a major issue, but the government have just privatised student loans which is worrying to the point that that Martin Bloke from Money Saving Expert has hired lawyers to figure out exactly how illegal it is. With the higher interest rates, graduates now need to be earning £41k just to cover the interest. They have also pushed through plans to rate universities, and allow ones which achieve a certain rating to charge higher fees, potentially creating a bigger educational class divide.

It worries me that this isn't just a vote for the EU, it's also a vote for Cameron or Boris.

 

[Fitzroy]

This wouldn't be a major issue, but the government have just privatised student loans which is worrying to the point that that Martin Bloke from Money Saving Expert has hired lawyers to figure out exactly how illegal it is. With the higher interest rates, graduates now need to be earning £41k just to cover the interest.

I've read the same article. Privatising the loan is BS and should be investigated. The maths on having to earn 41k is flawed. The maths actually represents that if you pay off the minimum required, based on a sliding scale of income, you will pay off the entire loan if you earn more than 41k. However if you earn less than this you will only pay off part of the loan before it is written off after 30 years. You can always choose to pay off more than then minimum, preventing the loan growing, and minimising the total you pay back. In the example the loan interest was c. £175/month, if you are earning £41k per year your take home is £2500/month, i'f argue you should be able to budget £250/month to pay the loan down asap. The issue needs to focus on the (i)legality of the privatisation of the loan and increase in interest rate.

Sorry off topic but I hate it when articles spin things, especially when that spin dilutes an important message.

Fitz.

 

[MIGNAL]

Norway would give you free health care because od reciprocal arrangements - why would a European Country without free health care have any arrangement to pay for its expats? You seem to have a paranoid dislike of the right wing press - you're not like one or two others here that only believe something if they've read it in the Grauniad, are you?

When they confuse housing, refugees and immigration I have a justifiable right to point out the obvious.
As for your comment on health care, it was a response to your own comment that Norway probably does not give free health care to immigrants. It does.
Note. According to the Daily Mail the EU have 'ordered Britain' to build more houses for immigrants.
Amazing amount of powers that the EU has! You can believe it Phil. I'll arm myself with my BS detector.
Off to eat a bent banana!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Did you see Paxman speaking to the EU spokesman on either the straight cucumber or bent banana law (I forget which, it doesn't matter) - the spokesman said it had never existed because it had been repealed. When Paxman pointed out that it must have existed to be repealed the spokesman said precisely, it never existed because it was repealed. I think we need bigger BS detectors to deal with the effluent that comes out of Brussels than we'll ever need for the Torygraph or the Mail. As a matter of interest if the EU is as good for us as it says it is - why, in 2014 did it need to spend 664 million Euros (a large % of them ours) on self promotion?

 

[MIGNAL]

They probably have to spend that money to counteract the complete BS of the right wing press!
Here you go, even Sky agree!

http://news.sky.com/story/1266181/the-t ... s-debunked

Crikey. There are hundreds of such complete and utter BS stories. I guess the Daily Mail sit in their sumptuous offices dreaming up these stories. They know full well that they are complete BS but of course they also know that if you throw enough mud some of it sticks. Of course their readers will lap up anything thrown at them!

 

[mind_the_goat]

Did you see Paxman speaking to the EU spokesman on either the straight cucumber or bent banana law (I forget which, it doesn't matter) - the spokesman said it had never existed because it had been repealed. When Paxman pointed out that it must have existed to be repealed the spokesman said precisely, it never existed because it was repealed. I think we need bigger BS detectors to deal with the effluent that comes out of Brussels than we'll ever need for the Torygraph or the Mail. As a matter of interest if the EU is as good for us as it says it is - why, in 2014 did it need to spend 664 million Euros (a large % of them ours) on self promotion?

This is why the job of being a politician only attracts a very slim range of personality types. Rather than needing particular skills in industry, science, law, agriculture, finance etc, the biggest skill required is standing up to a press that is desperate to trip them up to get juicy sound bites. I used to like Paxman but when I listen to him now I just find him annoying, there is no depth to his interviews. He seems to ignore the answers, even when he gets one and keeps punching away till his opponent is knocked out. It takes a very strong personality to stand up to that, The interviewee will either go totally defensive and just keep repeating an answer, or lack of one, or will get flustered and say something stupid. Either way, Paxman wins and we learn nothing.
A decent journalist would have just looked it up and reported what the regulation actually defined, it doesn't need opinion, it's written down. What the hell was the point of trying to get an EU official to admit the existence of a regulation on straight bananas, except for entertainment?

 

[Eric The Viking]

They probably have to spend that money to counteract the complete BS of the right wing press!
Here you go, even Sky agree!

http://news.sky.com/story/1266181/the-t ... s-debunked

Er, no they don't. The page says this:

The EC says the rules only apply to green, unripe bananas, and that the banana industry and national governments asked for such quality control regulations.

Which is exactly what I said earlier, if you understand the EU coded language:

"The banana industry" - doesn't exist as they are not grown in the main part of the EU, however there *are* French external territories governed as France, which do grow them...

"... national governments asked for such quality control regulations." Guess which one.

And bananas are always imported GREEN: they ripen en route to the shops.

... They know full well that they are complete BS but of course they also know that if you throw enough mud some of it sticks. Of course their readers will lap up anything thrown at them!

A few are BS, but many are true - I wouldn't put the Commission above starting a few of the dafter hares itself, just to shame the gullible. The bananas thing was an attempt to stitch up the import business by the French, which failed. The cucumber thing was, I'd guess just a copy+paste job at some point. Again, as I said, from memory, entire paragraphs were identical between the two.

I also mentioned Martin Bangemann back in the 1990s trying to get all sorts of really repressive regs applied to motorcycles. He tried for on-tank airbags, and leg guards (think Mediaeval grieves), and he did at one point say in a speech he wanted bikes totally banned (but that never became an EU policysuggestion). Any members of MAG on here who remember the fun?

Oh, and don't forget landlocked Austria had its turn at the Fisheries Commissioner post.

And don't forget how much it costs to migrate the parliament between Brussels and Strasbourg every month, simply to keep the French happy.

And don't forget MEPs just sign for expenses and daily attendance without producing receipts. There was a covert video made of them turning up at the parliament on a Friday, signing in and then b*****ing off home at around 9am. There was a lot of fuss when it was all exposed so it might be reformed now, but that would have been despite MEPs, not because of them.

 

[Eric The Viking]

What the hell was the point of trying to get an EU official to admit the existence of a regulation on straight bananas, except for entertainment?

I find it very entertaining

 

[MIGNAL]

Did the EU ban bent bananas?

 

[mind_the_goat]

"The banana industry" - doesn't exist as they are not grown in the main part of the EU, however there *are* French external territories governed as France, which do grow them...
.[/quote

You missed out Spain the biggest producer, Italy and Greece.

Here's the current reg: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:336:0023:0034:EN:PDF
It has NEVER defined an acceptable curvature but simply states they should not be deformed. There IS a size limit, but even that has exceptions and there are different quality classifications.
Also note that is has been reviewed and modified, so these things are not set in stone.


--(Edited to correct my quote attribution)

 

[Eric The Viking]

"The banana industry" - doesn't exist as they are not grown in the main part of the EU, however there *are* French external territories governed as France, which do grow them...
.

You missed out Spain the biggest producer, Italy and Greece.

Here's the current reg: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:336:0023:0034:EN:PDF
It has NEVER defined an acceptable curvature but simply states they should not be deformed. There IS a size limit, but even that has exceptions and there are different quality classifications.
Also note that is has been reviewed and modified, so these things are not set in stone.

Good catch. That's what I was looking for.

Poor choice of words on my part - the vast majority are imported from outside the EU.

I assume you're not defending it - the real question is why we need ANY sort of EU standard on fruit - aren't the public capable of making up their own minds in the first place?

In any case, my basic point stands - it was a protectionist move dressed up as a quality standard.

I want shot of all that rubbish.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

The unfortunate thing is that no matter how stupid a story seems, if someone told me it had emanated from the EU I would probably believe it as they have come up with so many stupid rules and regulations in the past.
As for the rules for bananas - they were mostly introduced to favour French overseas territories as it worked against Carribean growers. Why we should be remotely concerned about the welfare of French overseas dependencies any more than they should worry two hoots about ours is beyond me. That one page alone is enough to make me want out. Europe's been going downhill for years and that sort of crapp is all they can be bothered with.
What the hell was the point of trying to get an EU official to admit the existence of a regulation on straight bananas, except for entertainment? Maybe he was attempting to get one to tell the truth?

 

[mind_the_goat]

The unfortunate thing is that no matter how stupid a story seems, if someone told me it had emanated from the EU I would probably believe it

Thanks, in no small part, to the media

As for the rules for bananas - they were mostly introduced to favour French overseas territories as it worked against Caribbean growers.

French oversea territories where ?
The EU has had import tariffs in place which favoured Caribbean growers, particularly from the windward Isles, many of which were Ex British territories. Seems unlikely the Banana standards were designed to benefit any country by the back door while no attempt was made to hide the front door protectionism. Also if the banana standards were to protect French territories, what are the other fruit standards for ?

What the hell was the point of trying to get an EU official to admit the existence of a regulation on straight bananas, except for entertainment? Maybe he was attempting to get one to tell the truth?

Which he completely failed to achieve

 

[Jacob]

My expectation is that those most misinformed about the EU will also tend to be misinformed about the date/location of the vote and the need to register, and will tend miss it - resulting in a massive vote for Remain!

 

[davin]

All I can say is that as an immigrant myself, my family are seriously thinking of going home. I have Finnish and British citizenship, my wife is Polish so my kids luckily have three passports.
I am fed up with constantly hearing that everything in this country is the fault of immigration, even this morning that right wing mouthpiece Nik Ferrari on LBC was trying to blame foreigners for the long delays on the M25 .
You hear and read it all the time, a constant drip feed of blame.the obvious culprit is the Daily hate Mail, and other right wing papers. Even in this thread I have read it, I wont paste them as I am not in the mood for an argument.
I have lived in this country long enough to know there has never been a glorious rosy time pre immigration that I can remember.
I do not want my kids feeling like second class citizens just because they are part "foreign".
Apologies if this is not a particularly concise political argument, rather an emotional outburst.

 

[Fitzroy]

We are all immigrants, just some have families that have been on our little green isle longer than others, which many people seem to think gives them a rite to tell everyone else to f'off! Work hard, pay yer dues, and do yer bit for society, if yer do then to stuff with what the rabble may think.

I also think that in part rose tinted spectacle syndrome is at play here. It is widely promoted that the 70s were the last great hey day, the era of my childhood and fond memories i have. The mind's eye of many people, me included, hark back to these simpler times pre-mobiles, pre-internet, pre-social media, pre spin culture, pre the buzz word sound bite frenzy world that we seem to live in now. I think there is some delusion that as soon as we all vote out everything will be perfect and all will be rosy once again. The world is a so much more complicated place than that now, with more political spin, big business lobbying and miss information, getting out of the EU will not fix this. A grass roots change in the political/financial system is needed, and yes perhaps this would be easier without being tied into the EU, but if people think this will happen because we leave the EU they are deluded.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

My expectation is that those most misinformed about the EU will also tend to be misinformed about the date/location of the vote and the need to register, and will tend miss it - resulting in a massive vote for Remain!

You don't need to register for it.

 

[Wuffles]

My expectation is that those most misinformed about the EU will also tend to be misinformed about the date/location of the vote and the need to register, and will tend miss it - resulting in a massive vote for Remain!

You don't need to register for it.

Well, you do if you aren't registered "to vote" at all.

 

[Jacob]

You need to be on the electoral roll. I shouldn't say this as I bet a few Brexiters aren't.