Fed up with the hyperbole of the referendum?

[Phil Pascoe]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brussels-Laid-B ... 095541881X
I suppose her version is all lies well? I've been informed by Europhiles that http://campaignforanindependentbritain. ... -a-Day.pdf is nothing but lies.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Someone made a reasonable observation on the Times on Line - everything Osborne has forecast up to now has been opposite to what actually happened, so now he's forecast disaster if we leave ...

 

[mind_the_goat]

Many (most) academic organisations receive huge amounts from the EU....

That may well be true, and with no 'plan' in place to replace this investment there could be a big negative impact on UK research. I believe it's quite reasonable for such organisations to be worried. Most of these are not total self serving organisations, their work will feed into the UK knowledge economy, which is pretty much all we have apart from banking.

....and then prosecuted in the European Court for writing it..

The court case you refer to was basically an unfair dismissal claim, not a prosecution, very different things. I'm not arguing the rights or wrongs of the decision, but it's not at all uncommon for civil servants to be sacked for speaking out against government.

Thanks to Sam for posting that first link, thankfully there are a few groups doing their best to explain the impact of the two choices, and within that that the myriad of different possible outcomes.

 

[Fitzroy]

I see this as the most significant issue I will have voted on in my lifetime, but the one that I know the least about, and I consider myself pretty well educated! I've registered for an online weblearn, link below, and between this and reading around the subject I've decided I was poorly educated and ill-informed as it is just not that simple issue.

The media, and both Brexit and Remain camps, love sound-bites but the fact of the matter is that it is more complicated than that! I doubt more than 10% of the people who go to the polls will have looked into the matter beyond the sound-bites, and their decision (either way) will be on the same basis as Mr Huddersfield (2nd link below).

https://openeducation.blackboard.com/mooc-catalog/courseDetails/view?course_id=_985_1#

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...ks-britain-should-leave-the-eu-20160524109070

 

[Cordy]

I agree with Gillian Duffy

 

[Phil Pascoe]

:lol: Tracy Emin's desire to stay in has just reinforced mine to get out.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Many (most) academic organisations receive huge amounts from the EU....

That may well be true, and with no 'plan' in place to replace this investment there could be a big negative impact on UK research.

Rubbish. We can fund what we choose, although IMHO, the first thing to be scrapped should be the Galileo project (that would save quite a lot!). We only need a third GPS satellite constellation if the American and Russian ones fail, or we intend to invade either country.

Much 'research' is in the fields of social sciences, and it IS used in essence for pro-EU propaganda, and is all the more upsetting as it's aimed at undergraduates. There are sponsorship programmes, too (Erasmus?), taxpayers' money 'repurposed' to fund pro-EU jollys for students.

Don't get me started on EU arts funding, either. Take my money in taxes, slice off a percentage to pay bureaucracy, then give it away to many projects I don't agree with, labelled as "art", with a political agenda?

Wonderful to be able to use other people's money as largesse.

I believe it's quite reasonable for such organisations to be worried. Most of these are not total self serving organisations, their work will feed into the UK knowledge economy, which is pretty much all we have apart from banking.

That's an interesting analysis. Not one I agree with, of course.

....and then prosecuted in the European Court for writing it..

The court case you refer to was basically an unfair dismissal claim, not a prosecution, very different things. I'm not arguing the rights or wrongs of the decision, but it's not at all uncommon for civil servants to be sacked for speaking out against government.

Andreason's case was definitely unfair dismissal, which she lost. IIRC, Connolly's was a (criminal) prosecution.

 

[mind_the_goat]

:lol: Tracy Emin's desire to stay in has just reinforced mine to get out.

That might be a typical response to a personality that many people may base their vote on, Pretty sure I'm under the influence as well, Boris being a very clever (and ambitious) person masquerading as a buffoon means I trust him the least of all those involved.

Rubbish. We can fund what we choose,

Yes, of course we can, but there is no guarantee existing EU funding would be replaced so they are going to be concerned

the first thing to be scrapped should be the Galileo project

Perhaps, seems to be going the way of the Eurofighter, very very late, over budget and in need of an upgrade as soon as it is completed. Having it though would make us more independent of other countries, which is what many Brexiters want for us. Not so much a problem of the other systems failing, more likely they could be throttled to reduce accuracy, which used to be the case. The Galileo system would be more accurate, something that may be essential for widespread use of self driving vehicles, and Amazon drone delivery systems, there is prospect of it bringing in revenue, but how much is hard to predict.

Much 'research' is in the fields of social sciences, and it IS used in essence for pro-EU propaganda

Are you saying that research projects are pushed out by the EU, possibly with emphasis on the result expected, or grants are preferentially offered to 'favourable' requests? Or maybe something else. Not an area I'm familiar with but interested in your concerns.

There are sponsorship programmes, too....Don't get me started on EU arts funding.

Good. EU sponsorship for students is even more essential now many students will come out of university with more debt then I have ever had in my whole life. There are also many grants that support small businesses, community groups and individuals. Is that really a problem?
Many people on this forum could be considered artists, maybe some are eligible. I admit to sometimes finding it annoying that some people are able get through life by doing art, and enjoying themselves, instead of doing a proper job and being miserable, but, I do enjoy seeing public artworks and I'm sure many other do too. There are far worse things our money get spent on.

then give it away to many projects I don't agree with

Yeah, that happens, most of my taxes are given away to projects I don't agree with, in areas I never go to and people I never meet. on an individual level that kinda the point.

 

[DTR]

I admit to sometimes finding it annoying that some people are able get through life by doing art, and enjoying themselves, instead of doing a proper job and being miserable.

:lol:

 

[graduate_owner]

Another thing I don't understand is the suggestion that whilst we can change our government every 5 years, we will not be able to get out of Europe unless we vote to leave now. Why not? Cameron pledged to hold a referendum in his manifesto, so we have a referendum. Why could we not have another in 15 years time, even in 5 years time? What is to stop the next party leader from pledging another referendum if elected just like Cameron did? Is there yet another EU law that says member countries can only hold one referendum in any specified period, or in our lifetimes?

By the same argument - if we leave the EU, will we able to re-join? So if this is our now-or-never chance to get ouf of the EU then surely it is also our now-or never chance to stay in?

Whichever way you want to vote, it seems to me that the now-or-never chance to leave argument is somewhat spurious.

K

 

[Eric The Viking]

This is exactly the sort of political interference I was talking about, although in this case simple bullying rather than bribery:

BBC: Netflix and Amazon face quota on EU-made content:

"This is driven by the core problem that the EU identified 40 years ago, that the Hollywood studios and other US producers dominate global box office and broadcasting because they have scale that cannot be achieved in a fragmented EU," said Alice Enders, from the media consultancy Enders Analysis.

EU mouthpiece alert!

If Europe is so bad for film making, why do so many projects film in the EU, in particular Hungary and the Czech republic?

Film4 supposedly shows the best of EU video production (and it does get a lot of EU money for its projects), but much that's indigenous is simply dire and wouldn't survive at the box office. One reason Hollywood has stayed at the top of its game for so long is that it's simply ruthless in not accepting stuff that isn't entertaining. That's not to say 'worthy' stuff doesn't get made, but that the standards have to be very high.

And I've just remembered: Game of Thrones is shot in the EU too (Northern Ireland). I doubt that would count either, because the production values are very firmly Hollywood (not that I've ever watched it).

I'm not anti-art at all, I just disagree with the idea that someone can do something badly and get given our money via the EU, because they call it art and made it in the EU, and/or (presumably) they have a political slant. It all sounds very Stalinist to me.

 

[RobinBHM]

I find it frustrating that the EU spend so much money on their own staff

I can remember when Neil Kinnock became an British eu commissioner and was earning more than the prime minister.

MEPs now earn about 8000 euros a month

 

[Phil Pascoe]

And their expenses are much the same (see what they can get without needing receipts :shock: ). I've never under stood why this is the one and only referendum, as no government can bind any following government to anything.

 

[Water-Mark]

I found it interesting how boris was on the fence one minute and leading the out campaign with gusto the next.
I've never known anybody waiver over a decision then commit so hard.


Worth noting is that the result is not binding.

Vote all you like, we'll be staying in regardless.

 

[Wuffles]

I found it interesting how boris was on the fence one minute and leading the out campaign with gusto the next.
I've never known anybody waiver over a decision then commit so hard.


Worth noting is that the result is not binding.

Vote all you like, we'll be staying in regardless.

He's also been responsible for writing a few of the classic BS EU stories over the years too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Phil Pascoe]

The Conservative Party were told not to campaign for out, and were refused statistics by the government. That might have something to do with it. Conversely, Cameron was (apparently) eager to leave if he didn't get what he wanted. However, it's all reformed now and a nice place again.
Vote all you like, we'll be staying in regardless? My thoughts a few months ago, but I suspect there would be riots.
The problem with BS stories is that the EU itself comes out with so much of it that the more ridiculous something is, the less likely I am to query it.

 

[Water-Mark]

I can't see there being riots, the people who'd be prepared to won't care.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I tend to agree with a woman advisor to Obama who said she thought it wouldn't make more than a % or two of difference one way or the other on GDP no matter what happened, and it would take years to do that.
I enjoy the threads in the on line newspaper I subscribe to. One left wing rabid Europhile has been telling everyone for weeks that if we leave GB will pale into insignificance and will be no more than a European off island with the importance of Rockall. Our status in the world must have changed yesterday, however, because this morning he accused right wingers of hoping to start WW3 in Europe by leaving.
As someone said of Cameron - was he lying last month, or is he lying now?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Unlike some, I don't believe that the EU is a conspiracy. I think it was conceived with noble intent - to ensure peace in Europe. Unfortunately, the method of achieving this has a Fatal Flaw - it does not have a democratic mandate, and such a mandate has never been sought. With careful manipulation it appears that there is a veneer of democracy, but there actually isn't much. You can elect members of the European Parliament, but that has no real power or authority to make decisions.

At some point, the 'project', however well intentioned, starts to diverge slowly from the general will of the moderate majority. Nobody in any EU member state can vote to change the core decision-makers. I don't believe that those core decision makers have evil intent - indeed, I think most are decent and principled people. However, their decisions are not supported by popular democratic mandate - the real decision makers are appointed, not elected.

There are from time to time riots organised by the far left, or the far right, but those are not really too much of a problem - the moderate majority doesn't get involved, even if some of them do have a sneaking sympathy for the point of view of the protestors. However, when the EU decision-makers go just a bit too far, and the moderate majority find that their views expressed through the ballot box are being ignored, what do they do? When democratic means of exerting the will of the majority don't work, what options are then open to the majority? No palatable ones.

We haven't quite reached that tipping point in the EU, but there are signs of disquiet in several countries. If the EU continues along it's arrogant path, ignoring the will of an increasingly ignored moderate majority - well, it's not going to end well, is it?

Had the EU been content to be an organisation based on close co-operation between independent sovereign nation states, I think it would have general support, if not always complete approval. The determination to ram together disparate states with no common demos into one super-nation means it is doomed to fail; the sooner it fails, the less damage will be caused.

Ignoring democracy in countries with a long attachment to it is a recipe for disaster. All the arguments about the state of the economy in 12 months' time, or whether foreign holidays will cost more, are just trivia by comparison.

I have to confess that I'm utterly baffled that so many supposedly intelligent politicians are seemingly so keen on the UK's EU membership. It may be because the EU is a nice, cosy club that works well for large organisations (major banks, for example) with the clout to lobby it in their interests, or because some politicians enjoy the idea of being 'in power' and see the EU as a handy fallback if they're voted out of UK office. Whatever.

Hence, my question earlier in the thread - who governs, in who's interest, and to whom are they accountable. That's the nub of it, for me.

(Edited to tidy up the first two paragraphs, which were somewhat garbled.)

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I believe anyone reading Junckers reaction to the Austrian election (ignored by the BBC - no surprise, there) should agree with you. (I did say "should" not "would".)