Far infra-red heating panels and battery storage

[woodieallen]

I know there are some knowledgable chaps on here.

We're looking at buying a thatched Grade 2 Listed building. The current (limited) heating are Night Storage heaters, log Burner and open fire. SWMBO thinks they look pretty ugly - I agree. So what to do?

Heat pumps not viable because (a) poor insulation (b) nowhere to put the large storage tank (c) running pipes everywhere

Good old-fashioned oil fired boiler but (a) running pipes everywhere (b) siting the flue may be problematic due to Listing.

So I'm thinking along the lines of ceiling mounted far infra-red panels controlled by wi-fi, motion detectors so they come on only when someone is in the room. But will need an override to give some gentle background heat at times to keep the house free of damp. Should be easier to run cabling...

Tesla battery for economy. Question...if the battery is quoted as 13.5kW ...does that mean if I plug a 1kw fire in, it will last for 13.5 hours ?

All new territory for me.

 

[Sideways]

Why a battery ?
Do you have an EV so you can have cheap overnight electricity (for the next few years - the incentive will reduce as they become more common and day / night demand on the grid equalises).

If you are going to run pipes for an oil boiler, you should run pipes big enough for the rads to work off a heat pump, so it makes little difference.

I think IR panels are a gamble for a "home". They better suit small properties like city flats where people are only home for part of the day. Fast heat up, controllability then offset a lower running efficiency than heating powered by a boiler or heat pump. This is a perception. I don't have IR panels so I've never done the maths myself.

 

[woodieallen]

Interesting points. Reason for the battery was to take advantage of cheaper night-time rates. No EV nor likely to get one.

I think pipes are a no-no but hard to say at the moment.

The property is small

 

[Spectric]

We're looking at buying a thatched Grade 2 Listed building

Many a person has lived there and before modern heating so why not just use a log burner, they are great for keeping any damp at bay and produce plenty of heat.

 

[woodieallen]

Many a person has lived there and before modern heating so why not just use a log burner, they are great for keeping any damp at bay and produce plenty of heat.

True. But that only heats up one room. In fac there already is one at one end of the house. Doubles as a back boiler.

 

[Old.bodger]

Have you considered:

https://nexgenheating.com/products/ceiling-paper

 

[Eshmiel]

An air source heat pump doesn't require much in the way of pipework - and what there is generally goes entirely on the outside wall, where it can be disguised in many ways. Outside is the where the heat exchanger with the electricity supply conduit and coolant/heating fluid pipes are all sited. Inside is just a box on the wall containing the fan and louvres that emit and direct the warm or cool air. They generally come with a remote control like a TV remote, along with software to allow all sorts of modes, profiles, timers and the like. They are very inexpensive to run, especially if you have cheap overnight lecky and a battery to store it in.

They're also very quiet (inaudible unless you're right next to them) despite the scuttlebutt.

We have what might be called an eco-house, with a ground source vertical bore heat pump (They're expensive!) providing all the heating and hot water, 11kw of solar panels, 30 kwh battery storage and two air source heat pumps mainly for summer cooling but also used to bump up indoor heating if we feel like it. And an e-car. The house is also well insulated but you don't need insulation to save money by using an air source heat pump, as any other heating will cost you 3-4X the electricity, no matter how much heat does or doesn't escape through the walls.

This year, the lecky company will pay us about £1000 - courtesy of us selling our excess solar to them - more than we pay them for that cheap overnight lecky, the only sort we use courtesy of the battery storage. Get an e-car with vehicle-to-house capability and you can use its battery as a house battery. It does require an expensive smart charger thing but an e-car can add 50 -60kwh of storage to your house battery capacity. Handy when the next storm blows down all the local pylons and the flood does for the big sub-station, that.

And no petrol or diesel bills.

A log burner can be cheap heating if you have your own wood and the means to cut, dry and store it. Sadly, it'll slowly kill you and your neighbours with its outgassing, even though you might think it "sealed and clean". The things create far more indoor pollution than they do outdoor pollution, even if you can't easily see it (until you get sick i' the lungs and other parts).

PS There are far better options than a Tesla battery, these days. Muskrat is also a pollutant and is likely hastening the demise of millions, one way and another.

 

[Ollie78]

I know there are some knowledgable chaps on here.

We're looking at buying a thatched Grade 2 Listed building. The current (limited) heating are Night Storage heaters, log Burner and open fire. SWMBO thinks they look pretty ugly - I agree. So what to do?

Heat pumps not viable because (a) poor insulation (b) nowhere to put the large storage tank (c) running pipes everywhere

Good old-fashioned oil fired boiler but (a) running pipes everywhere (b) siting the flue may be problematic due to Listing.

So I'm thinking along the lines of ceiling mounted far infra-red panels controlled by wi-fi, motion detectors so they come on only when someone is in the room. But will need an override to give some gentle background heat at times to keep the house free of damp. Should be easier to run cabling...

Tesla battery for economy. Question...if the battery is quoted as 13.5kW ...does that mean if I plug a 1kw fire in, it will last for 13.5 hours ?

All new territory for me.

As for the solar and battery. I have done quite a bit of looking into this, your 1kw for an hour is 1kwh so you could get 13,5 hours out of it but obviously every time you change the from ac to dc you lose some and nothing is 100% efficient so you would likely only get 12 maybe. I am assuming you will use the economy 7 tarrif that powers the storage heaters

There is a youtube chanel called gary does solar which explains how it all works in easy to understand videos.
I narrowed my search down to a Victron system because of its fully customisable and upgradable nature as well as excellent software. Unfortunately for us we need to spend the money on flood prevention. The Victron site has good information.

My parents tried a test panel of the infra red heaters, the white ones that can be ceiling mounted. They are nothing like the glowing red infra red style patio heaters, my Dad described it as "absolutely pathetic" so definitely try before you buy some of those.

What about an AGA with a backboiler, very traditional for your listed property. Could this be hooked up to underfloor heating maybe ?

We are using 90% log burner for our heating but our house is pretty small. In hindsight I wish we installed a back burner model and hooked it to the radiators.

 

[Blackswanwood]

You may already be aware but if not there is a forum called Period Property UK that may be a good source of information on this.

 

[Sideways]

Interesting points. Reason for the battery was to take advantage of cheaper night-time rates. No EV nor likely to get one.

Without the very low price you get with EV overnight tarriffs, it doesn't work. Batteries and inverters aren't cheap if you buy them rather than having the electrical skills to self build. Amortise the capital cost over the expected life of the hardware and it works out at more than a few pence per kWh. Home battery tarriffs like the Octopus one don't work in my opinion. The hardware cost vs the kWh saving over the life of the battery is potentially just a break even, so no point in taking the risk.
Different if you have solar or the skills to self build a battery pack from parts.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

What about an AGA with a backboiler, very traditional for your listed property. Could this be hooked up to underfloor heating maybe ?

I read an article by a reputable journalist who had a house somewhere in the Cotswolds saying how she loved her Aga but not the fuel bill - £13.000 p. a.

 

[Lorenzl]

An interesting solar battery channel on Youtube

I looked into infra-red panels and the output didn't seem to stack up to expectations on the reviews I found. They are also quite heavy and for an old house you need lots of them.

An interesting link @Old.bodger

I am new to wood burners and they use an awful lot of wood if you use them for heating rather than decoration. A multifuel burner may be better as a neighbour uses coal and he can have it closed down so it burns all night. Our wood burner gets through a log in about 30min and even the synthetic logs that are supposed to burn all night last less than an hour.

I am a heat pump sceptic and have an old uninsulated house and decided against one. An electrician and plumber that did work for me both said they wouldn't have one.

We don't have access to gas and so we ended up with a 22Kw electric boiler and old style cast iron rads. It is very expensive but using the wood burner as well gets it down to about half. The part of the house I am currently renovating is very well insulated and we will have to live down that end in the winter when it is completed. It is also clean, could be mounted anywhere and didn't need a flue.

A couple of people I know have wood pellet burners and are happy with them although one doesn't seem very reliable and the other the pellet feed gets blocked. You need to have somewhere to store the pellets.

I did consider Thermal battery and may still get one for the hot water as have a long house with water requirements at both ends.

I don't expect too live here long enough to get payback on solar panels, my roof probably wouldn't take the weight and the garden is not large enough to have them.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Spectric]

I am new to wood burners and they use an awful lot of wood if you use them for heating rather than decoration.

There are several variables here, the size of your woodburner and type of wood. Softwood is cheaper, burns faster, produces less heat and more crud in the flue. Hardwoods are better, Birch and Ash are a good mix to use as they give out more heat and burn longer. A multifuel stove is ideal if you want overnight burn as you just stoke it up and turn down the air. I agree about the heat pumps, work much better in summer.