Face masks

[Rorschach]

Phone in topic on the radio today, mandatory vaccination.

I'd be interested to know if the people who were in favour of a strict lockdown, and indeed think we should still be under it, also very pro-masks etc. Are those same people happy with mandatory vaccinations?

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I guess it is a sliding scale, but mandatory vaccination seems to me to be in another league to enforced lock down or mask wearing. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for vaccination, but forced is to me unacceptable and probably counter-productive. As it has not been considered for anything else - e.g MMR - I can't see that being a real prospect.

One of the things I've been wondering - I get the impression we have some opposition to masks here, which surprises me a bit; as woodworkers, surely we are all used to wearing, and accept the value of, PPE of various sorts :? ? For what, 30-60 minutes in a shop it seems a fairly small thing to me. Certainly when compared with accepting a not very long tested vaccine.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Masks are being mandated based upon the proposition that doing so reduces the risk to others. The nature of the masks/face covering means it gives limited protection to the user.

Vaccine protects those who are vaccinated - it is the individual who is at risk from their own refusal to be vaccinated. Whether that is a sensible response or plain stupid is open to debate

 

[Rorschach]

Vaccine protects those who are vaccinated - it is the individual who is at risk from their own refusal to be vaccinated. Whether that is a sensible response or plain stupid is open to debate

Not entirely true I am afraid, vaccines work on a principle of herd immunity since not everyone in a population can be vaccinated and the vaccine doesn't provide a sufficient immune response in everyone it is given too (plus the response can fade over time). The idea being that if enough people can mount a reasonable immune response then a disease is unable to get a strong enough foothold to spread.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Mandated vaccines bring up moral issues: if you don't have the right to control your own body, what do you have?

Who gets to be dictator? Who gets to decide?

Bit of a moral minefield.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Not entirely true I am afraid, vaccines work on a principle of herd immunity since not everyone in a population can be vaccinated and the vaccine doesn't provide a sufficient immune response in everyone it is given too (plus the response can fade over time). The idea being that if enough people can mount a reasonable immune response then a disease is unable to get a strong enough foothold to spread.

I am making the simplistic and as yet unproven assumption that immunity is effectively permanent, or can be updated annually and (say) combined with the flu vaccine. The initial results from the Oxford vaccine suggest that ~ 90% of first vaccines are effective rising to 100% with a second ***.

For a population you are right that a vaccine works through herd immunity - sufficient numbers need to be immune to reduce the rate of traansmission =< 1.

An individual does get immunity - so if vaccinated I have immunity. I may or may not care about the rest of the population.

 

[gregmcateer]

I've no axe to grind on the subject, but just saw this;

https://twitter.com/kenjeong/status/128 ... 20576?s=09

 

[profchris]

The initial results from the Oxford vaccine suggest that ~ 90% of first vaccines are effective rising to 100% with a second ***.

We have to be careful with statistics like these, which means knowing what the calculator of the statistic means by, in this case, "effective".

I think it means, roughly, "effective in reducing the risk of infection taking hold to whatever this vaccine achieves." So if the Oxford vaccine produces the same risk reduction as 'flu vaccines do, around 50% risk reduction, it's 90-100% effective in producing that risk reduction. In other words, a vaccinated person's risk is halved.

However, if the Oxford vaccine is as effective in preventing infection as, say, the measles vaccine (978%) then it would produce a much higher risk reduction.

I believe the next phase of the Oxford trials will test this, so we don't know the final "effectiveness" yet.

I don't think it means that if you are vaccinated you are immune, and thus have no risk from the virus - even for the measles vaccine, some of those vaccinated become infected.

Useful links:

https://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/init ... ndex2.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza ... ectiveness

 

[MikeG.]

The initial results from the Oxford vaccine suggest that ~ 90% of first vaccines are effective rising to 100% with a second ***.

We have to be careful with statistics like these.........

I think it means, roughly, "effective in reducing the risk of infection taking hold to whatever this vaccine achieves." So if the Oxford vaccine produces the same risk reduction as 'flu vaccines do, around 50% risk reduction..........

Careful!! That's some flu vaccines some years, and is the worst they manage. Some of them, some years, are very much more effective than that.

 

[Rorschach]

Careful!! That's some flu vaccines some years, and is the worst they manage. Some of them, some years, are very much more effective than that.

It wasn't in 2017/18, we had over 50,000 excess deaths that year, surely you remember the lockdown, the face masks, the media outrage, how life was never normal again................

 

[Rorschach]

First shopping trip with a mask today.

Just about everyone else seemed to be wearing one, bit weird smiling at people and realising they can't see you. New thin mask was reasonably comfortable in an air conditioned shop.

One thing I noticed though right away. In the last 4 months I have not touched my face when out shopping, been very careful as I am handling items to avoid until I am back in car, hands sanitised. Within 30 seconds of getting into the shop today I had adjusted my mask 3 times and I was constantly having to adjust things throughout the trip. I may be protecting others (dubious) but I am definitely not protecting myself much! :roll:

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Small town rural Greece mask protocol: wear it, because there is a €150 fine if you don't, but don't cover your nose, because 35°C etc.

Staff are rocking full-face plastic shields more suitable for strimmer, chainsaw or perhaps lathe use. Much nicer to wear, but probably does nothing for virus containment. The problem here is that, without the incessant media fear, no one would have a clue there is a problem - hardly any cases, almost no deaths. Hence the need to wear masks in public.

It's all a bit silly, really.

 

[RobinBHM]

I find wearing a mask makes my glasses steam up.

So now I might die crossing the road......

 

[DrPhill]

I find wearing a mask makes my glasses steam up.

I think that you should be due some condensation....

 

[John Brown]

First shopping trip with a mask today.

Just about everyone else seemed to be wearing one, bit weird smiling at people and realising they can't see you. New thin mask was reasonably comfortable in an air conditioned shop.

One thing I noticed though right away. In the last 4 months I have not touched my face when out shopping, been very careful as I am handling items to avoid until I am back in car, hands sanitised. Within 30 seconds of getting into the shop today I had adjusted my mask 3 times and I was constantly having to adjust things throughout the trip. I may be protecting others (dubious) but I am definitely not protecting myself much! :roll:

Me too! I find I'm constantly having to adjust my mask.
But as you suggest, maybe I'm protecting others, or more the point, since I don't have Covid, they're protecting me.

 

[billw]

I find wearing a mask makes my glasses steam up.

So now I might die crossing the road......

Most masks have a strip across the top that you pinch onto your nose to avoid this problem.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I find wearing a mask makes my glasses steam up.

So now I might die crossing the road......

Most masks have a strip across the top that you pinch onto your nose to avoid this problem.

Somebody explained that trick to me, too. However, no matter how I adjust the mask, I find it doesn't work consistently. Whatever I do, my glasses still steam up to some extent.

I have to say I utterly detest the things. I go along with the instruction to wear them in shops just out of courtesy to others, but I can't get the thing off fast enough on leaving. I certainly have a renewed sympathy for people who have to wear them as part of their daily work.

The sooner all this lot dies down and we can get back to normal - or whatever normal will look like after this - the better.

 

[Trevanion]

or more the point, since I don't have Covid, they're protecting me.

Do you know that for an absolute fact though?

In my eyes the selfish attitude of “I haven’t got it so I’m fine” is what’s going to be downfall of all the effort up to this point.

 

[RogerS]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned but ....

those masks with an exhale vent....surely utterly pointless and should be banned ? My understanding is that unless one has a full PPE3 mask, without a beard, properly fitted etc then the user is only partially protected. That this is accepted by the PtB(Powers that Be)....but the goal of everyone wearing a mask is that if anyone is infected then that mask limits (to a certain extent) them spewing out their Covid molecules for the rest of us to inhale.

So you go and give them a mask that has an exhale vent. #-o

 

[Chris152]

'Cloth face coverings, even homemade masks made of the correct material, are effective in reducing the spread of COVID-19 - for the wearer and those around them - according to a new study from Oxford’s Leverhulme Centre for Demographic Science.'
https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-ox ... 4dQDv-Vxk#