F22s again...

[Bingy man]

I think all the trades are now contaminated by dodgy unscrupulous individuals who just get everyone else a bad name in their quest for a fast buck. They want to get the job done, take the money and onto the next, I always found it better to explain things to people and also that sometimes a diagnosis might be wrong because it could be hidden by another fault. Just hoodwinking people with technical jargon is not in my opinion the way to represent your trade and get returning customers.

If I turned up at Cozzers house I would proceed in a logical manner.

1) Listen to his story and experiences.
2) From this I would be checking the mains pressure and listening to the noises to determine what it actually is, maybe water hammer.
3) I would not proceed onto the boiler issues until I had the mains pressure / stop cock resolved as this is a potential issue for all else.
4) When the mains pressure / noises have been resolved I have something to move forward with and have now discounted high pressure / low flow from causing any other issues.
5) Next is to turn off the isolators on the filter, (why is the filter housing spanner left there ? )
6) Remove the filling loop as it looks like this gives me access to the return pipe to the boiler and attach pressure tester.
7) Find a suitable location to isolate the boiler feed to the rads.
8) Pressure this part of the system and leave for at least four hours or overnight.
9) If pressure has fallen then your issue is within this section, if not move down the pipework and get to the last radiator you have access to.
10) At this radiator you need to isolate the pipework from going any further so all you have is that last rad with a feed and return in the circuit and nothing else. You can now remove isolation in 7) and pressure test again as before.
11) If pressure has not held then again you have found a problem otherwise this part of your system is sound.
12) Fit pressure tester to other part of the system using feed and blanking the return, now pressurise to 3 bar and wait.
14) If the pressure holds then you need to do a big rethink and start looking at your system in a lot more detail, where else do pipes run and use a listening rod to attempt to trace the leak under floors.
15) All else has failed and you have a leak in the last part of your system, if I was convinced I had fully tested and done everything possible and that the leak can only be under the concrete floor then first thing to look at is where any pipes exit the floor, keep the system pressurised and then start breaking out the concrete, get an hydraulic breaker as it will make the job easier. The better option if possible would be to fit new pipework above the concrete in false skirting boards and such to save time and cost in digging the floor out which could lead to other issues such as damp problems.

Not far off how I’d approach it , eliminating the water pressure is paramount and should be done 1st . but I’d isolate the boiler from the system and test that next so I can rule out the expansion vessel and connecting hose/pipe -Worcester 24/28 juniors are famous for blocking with sludge as it’s only a very small capillary tube a fitting, and of course the heat exchanger (s) . I’d test the whole system in its entirety and if a pressure drop is evident then I’d try to split it into separate sections. Should all the evidence point to the solid floor then this is where I’d be looking at ways to repipe it. The floor coming up would be a last resort having exhausted all other options with no clear path to repipe then up it comes . The next problem would be future proofing this so in the unfortunate situation of the new pipework leaking again in the future then access is a lot easier like for example running the pipework in a duct with as few joints as possible and 2 full bore isolating valves so that whole section can be isolated and drained and repaired if required. Oh and I agree about the greed and making fast cash attitude of most trades nowadays. I’ve just removed 2 separate bath seals and the equivalent of 4 full tubes of silicone from friends bath . It seams other so called professional plumbers have simply added even more silicone one tube after another . Not 1 has clocked that the back of the bath has dropped as the bits of mdf the bath feet were packed up with have of course rotted away with the constant ingress of water . It’s now cleaned out , bath panel removed for airflow and left to dry out and I’ll repair and reseal in a few days ..

 

[Old.bodger]

I think we have all said all we can. We just watch from afar and avoid ‘we told you’!

 

[Bingy man]

I never liked that saying tbh but it seems your right

 

[Fergie 307]

I would certainly have thought that it would be prudent to isolate the pipework under the floor, before you go to the extreme of digging it up. If this solves the issue then you know for sure that is the problem. If not you will have saved yourself an awful lot of grief. This ought to be fairly straightforward surely.

 

[Cozzer]

Do I notice a little bit of "attitude" creeping in on some of these posts?!
There seems to be an assumption that plumber boy hasn't done all of the tests that you have mentioned! He claims so, and with my scant knowledge of pipework and things akin to, who am I to argue? He disappears upstairs with his 2 cricket-bags of gadgets and I leave him to it. If after all his tests the conclusion is a leak, he should know?
A scammer he is not. I've used him ever since I found a recommendation from the previous house owner, and we've stuck with him since...in fact, he installed the Vaillant job for us.
I know what he's like - since seeing him the other night, he'll be thinking about different options that might be possible on Sunday. New pipework/skirting to hide would, on the face of it, seem a lot less hassle....
I have printed out Spectric's and Bingy Man's recent posts and will question him about their/your observations.

 

[Cozzer]

Well, Sunday's been and gone, as did the plumber, spot on time. He's not a big fan of dogs getting under his feet - especially a 9 month old dippy labrador - so I disappeared for an hour.
Back, I started quoting from my printouts. He didn't actually say anything, but I could tell he didn't "appreciate" me seeking advice/help from other parties.
"They're not looking at what I'm looking at..."
Anyway, as a result - maybe - plans were altered - there was no digging the ground floor up.
Instead, the floor around the boiler was eased up, to find that whoever had installed the piping umpteen years ago had only chopped one recess/channel for all the pipes and wiring, rather than one per pipe. Using felt and carpet bits, they now no longer rest against each other and hopefully will stop all the noise. Although the downstairs stop tap was opened/shut a few times during the whole operation, it's now back to almost closed at around 11.55 compared to shut at 12.05.
To establish/prove the leak's location, he decided to isolate the boiler, cap some pipes-or-other, and added a valve somewhere. The reasoning is that if we don't get an F22 in the next (say) fortnight, it'll prove the leak is downstairs. The downside of this is that we have no CH for that time, but given it's July, hopefully that shouldn't be too much of a problem.....(although it did dip a bit around midnight, I noticed! Dug out a thicker jumper!)
This morning, no F22. It was actually due yesterday, but didn't happen.
The big task now is to ensure that aforementioned labrador doesn't spot the disturbed carpet in the bathroom and consider helping by digging at it....

 

[Spectric]

Back, I started quoting from my printouts. He didn't actually say anything, but I could tell he didn't "appreciate" me seeking advice/help from other parties.

But I reckon it made him have a re think and he has now progressed in a more logical fashion in that he is trying to narrow down the location of the fault by fitting that isolator and only uncovering the pipes beneath the boiler. Are you saying that the wiring was also just burried along with the pipes ?

Is it possible to tidy up all those pipes / wires and rather than just bury and maybe fit some form of accessable cover ?

it'll prove the leak is downstairs

which could still be in the boiler but at least you know the upstairs is sound.

 

[Bingy man]

I agree , he’s probably not prepared to go through all that disturbance and expense on his part if it turns out to be sound ..nobody likes to be told it’s this or that but it’s all helpful advise and clearly it’s had an impact. It’s seams strange that with the boiler pipework exposed that he would not simply put a pressure test on but as he has said and I also said this in one of my replies there is no substitute for being there on the job .also in this day and age of social media, utube , and google etc any customer that doesn’t utilise these tools is just asking to be ripped off . Likewise just because you have had ten minutes on utube does not make the average customer an expert in that field .

 

[Cozzer]

Cozzer, completely as an aside, may I suggest you buy a cheap digital camera? They are marvellous things, and you will find that you can and will use one quite often, such as in this case, when you don't need to rely on neighbours to borrow their phone. Just sayin'.

Someone bought me a Canon PowerShot (?) something-or-other years ago, and I used it maybe 10 times in as many years!
It could be in a drawer, perhaps....or maybe binned in a big clearout!
Same with mobile phones - the only one I ever had was a Motorola (I think), the size of a breeze block, with a handset complete with curly cable!
Besides, I can't splash out £25-30 at the drop of a hat....I've got a plumber to pay!

 

[Jester129]

That £25 - F30 is actually £17.59 for the cheapest one on the big river, and could pay serious dividends on something such as this. Whilst frugality could be a virtue, foolhardiness can be costly. Just sayin' again!

 

[Jester129]

Actually, go and find that Canon Powershot!

 

[Fergie 307]

I remember watching a documentary where Ron Dennis took a film crew on a tour of the McClaren factory. In one utility area he had insisted that numerous pipes be bent in such a way that they all remained exactly parallel through numerous bends, just because them being out of line would have driven him crazy.
I'm not quite that bad, but have always found that if people are prepared to go to a bit of extra trouble to make something look neat and tidy, they are usually doing a good job.

 

[Spectric]

that numerous pipes be bent in such a way that they all remained exactly parallel through numerous bends

That is how all pipework should look, neat and tidy rather than all over the show. The same is true for high integrity wiring looms where wires should not cross others and be run in such a way that they all can exit a branch side by side without crossing. If you go right back to when looms were laced by skilled wireman in companies such as Marconi's then all the lacing knots had to be in line and exactly spaced without exception or it failed inspection. The thing now is that standards have slipped and the "that will do" attitude has crept in.

 

[Bingy man]

I’m currently fitting a new bathroom for a long term friend of mine. I last did it 15 odd years ago when he had his extension. The builder fitted the rad on 10mm plastic pipe even though he could have used copper . Drained the rad and capped the valves only to spot a slight trickle of water running down the tiles , drained the system and found the builder hadn’t used inserts and he knew it because of the tell tale signs of lx9 ( silicone) . Just glad I spotted it before I clad the walls as it would have probably trickled away for years until it eventually showed up ..

 

[Spectric]

I really hate plastic pipe, I still prefer copper and in 22 & 15mm rather than small bore with the exception being under floor heating. I still use solder joints and a pipe bender and only use the pushfits for temporary connections or capping off. I take the view that a copper soldered fitting is as simple as it gets, not dependant on an O ring for sealing or spring steel components to keep it together.

 

[Bingy man]

Agreed in full , beginning to think I was on my own ,, not saying it doesn’t have its uses in some situations but I’ll always go with copper if possible. Correctly assembled it will last forever..