F22s again...

[Bingy man]

Should not be left connected really when not in use. Take a picture of this filling loop, I tend to also fit an extra double check valve in the system .

Trouble is it’s not easy for many people including the elderly or short sighted to fit the key or hose etc and refill the system so many are left connected for this reason. Honest engineers don’t want to charge call outs for such minor things as topping up the system and if said person lives alone it’s likely this could be several times a year. Also I’ve seen several times where a new combi has been installed but in a new location eg moved due to a new kitchen or bathroom into the garage or loft but the original filling loop has been left connected. The early loops didn’t have single let alone double check valves . The last post clearly says the pressure was 0.9 when he went to bed but had risen to 1.6 when he woke up - obviously a leak on the boiler or system would reduce the pressure not increase it. Could he have a leak on the system or boiler and a passing filling loop -rare but not an impossible scenario. I’ve seen this personally on gas installations where the system is losing 3 mbar but the emergency control valve is passing 3mbar so if the tightness test is not carried out correctly then this 3 mbar leak will not show up and you could potentially leave a gas leak .

 

[Cozzer]

Morning, boys....
In answer to recent questions, yes, the CH is (always) off overnight. The pressure numbers quoted - 0.9 and 1.3 - were indeed the last/first observed. After washing and a use of toilet flush it then rose to the 1.6 mark.
I'll take a photo of the (permanent) filling loop, but I'll have to borrow a phone to do so...that'll be later today, I suppose.


Edit : That was lucky - my neighbour's in all day, so I've got his phone for other snaps if need be.
What I refer to as the filling loop is the braided steel job...yes? Anyway, for what they're worth, here's the set up...

 

[Jester129]

Cozzer, completely as an aside, may I suggest you buy a cheap digital camera? They are marvellous things, and you will find that you can and will use one quite often, such as in this case, when you don't need to rely on neighbours to borrow their phone. Just sayin'.

 

[Agent_zed]

What I am not understanding in this scenario is that if the water pressure is really way over what it should be, all of the neighbours would most likely be experiencing the same problem! They will be on the same water main and, unless works have been done, will be on the same connections to the mains etc.

As already mentioned having the stoptap almost closed or full open will make no difference at all to the pressure. It will equalise when all the taps in the house are off. That is how pressure in a fluid works. It won't have less pressure in one part than another if there is even the smallest of openings to a higher pressure supply.

If you want less flow to your taps just fit non-full bore isolators, I think a 15mm version has a hole of about 10mm.

The only thing you are doing by having the stop tap mostly closed is reducing the flow. If your boiler needs a certain amount of flow then I would guess that is your problem. The banging when the stop tap is open is not due to pressure, it's the flow over a faulty valve/washer causing resonance when the valve is in a specific position.

Change the stop tap and I'd bet the problem will go away.

 

[Bingy man]

Morning, boys....
In answer to recent questions, yes, the CH is (always) off overnight. The pressure numbers quoted - 0.9 and 1.3 - were indeed the last/first observed. After washing and a use of toilet flush it then rose to the 1.6 mark.
I'll take a photo of the (permanent) filling loop, but I'll have to borrow a phone to do so...that'll be later today, I suppose.


Edit : That was lucky - my neighbour's in all day, so I've got his phone for other snaps if need be.
What I refer to as the filling loop is the braided steel job...yes? Anyway, for what they're worth, here's the set up...
View attachment 183736

Standard filling loop but difficult to zoom in on the nrv ( if fitted ) and assuming if it’s directional that the valves are in the correct orientation. As suggested by I think @Spectric they should be removed once the system is filled to the correct pressure. There should be 2 small chrome caps to seal the ends off to keep dirt out etc . They just need to be hand tight . With the heating off the pressure shouldn’t rise unless it’s being fed from another source - additional filling loop,, integral filling loop built into boiler that is passing or has been left partially open. The more of these points you can eliminate the closer you will get to the real problem ( s)

 

[Jasper42]

If the boiler has been checked ( could be the expansion chamber) with no issues then drop some sealer into the heating system. It will seal any minor weeps. Recommend to 3 people over the last few years and saved them some money.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/fernox-f4-central-heating-leak-sealer-500ml/766pp

 

[Cozzer]

If the boiler has been checked ( could be the expansion chamber) with no issues then drop some sealer into the heating system. It will seal any minor weeps. Recommend to 3 people over the last few years and saved them some money.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/fernox-f4-central-heating-leak-sealer-500ml/766pp

Done it, matey. Only lasts so long, as I've found out...

 

[Cozzer]

Bit dopey this morning...late night is my excuse....

Forgot the bathroom "routine", God forbid.
Ripped the front off the airing cupboard to check for F22. No...good. Would've been a surprise, because I topped up 24 hours ago. Then, the error on my part...
Washed hands first.....whoa! Forgot to flush the toilet first, whether needed or not! Enormous noise as a result, so tap off as quickly as poss, bolt to toilet and flush. Not a good way to come round first thing in a morning....
As the cistern is filling, turn hot tap on, wait 30 seconds for it to actually run warm/hot, sink plug in. Now conscious that the cistern is almost topped up, it's a scramble to add any cold water in the sink in case the water in the sink is now "too" hot. Turning the cold tap on "automatically" turns the still-running hot tap flow to a mere trickle.
Sufficient cold added, turn cold tap off, and the hot regains its flow.
Turn hot tap off, and breathe....

So this has become our morning routine. I say morning....any time of day actually. Forget one element, or "perform" in the wrong order, and you're in trouble.
I'm reminded when my now-late m-i-law began to lose it a bit - in her late 80s, to be fair - when she started asking me to change all the light bulbs on every visit because "they'd been in a while". I used to point out out that a new one could fail within minutes of me leaving, and the original outlast us both, but no....
2 lights in the kitchen....one 60w, and the other "had to be" 100w. Why? Because that's how it was when they moved in, 30 years before.


I know, I know......

 

[Spectric]

to add any cold water in the sink in case the water in the sink is now "too" hot. Turning the cold tap on "automatically" turns the still-running hot tap flow to a mere trickle.
Sufficient cold added, turn cold tap off, and the hot regains its flow.

That sounds like you flow is far to low for the boiler, anything less than about 10 litres per min is an issue. With a low flow it could also explain the very hot water. So your two issues both need fixing, the leak on the sealed side that results in F22 & low pressure and then the low flow because your stop **** is not open enough because of noise in the pipework.

 

[Bingy man]

Think I said from the outset of this thread that the incoming water main and excessive pressure issues need to be eliminated with a mains pressure test carried out to determine exactly what is being supplied. Stop tap should be more or less fully open so any doubt and change it . The op previously stated the pressure was rising with no demand ( heating) so unless he is taking seriously long showers or filling a hedge bath then the problem is water is entering the system and raising the pressure possibly enough to open the safety valve which will drop the pressure as that’s its function . F22 will follow . If the safety valve is continuously opening then the 3bar opening pressure could be compromised and these valves are known for passing ( leaking ) leak sealer is definitely not the answer.

 

[Cozzer]

The plumber calleth.
Two months overdue, and without any prior warning, he turned up at teatime.
Showed him the records, 12 episodes of F22's during June, and also told him about the rise in pressure (?) overnight when nobody was using anything.
He managed to get the upstairs shower working - at least for the time being - which has saved us £650 for starters.
He's been a plumber for almost 40 years, and I'm not one. Ergo, if he says he's checked everything, I can only assume he has....so, from 8 o'clock this coming Sunday, we're digging up the lounge floor concrete.

Oh joy....

 

[Spectric]

He's been a plumber for almost 40 years, and I'm not one. Ergo, if he says he's checked everything, I can only assume he has....so, from 8 o'clock this coming Sunday, we're digging up the lounge floor concrete.

Some very drastic work, I do hope that plumber has really done every test and check possible to have confidence that there is A) a leak in the pipework & B) that it is under that concrete floor.

For me if you have not seen him using one of these then I would have doubts.

 

[Bingy man]

The plumber calleth.
Two months overdue, and without any prior warning, he turned up at teatime.
Showed him the records, 12 episodes of F22's during June, and also told him about the rise in pressure (?) overnight when nobody was using anything.
He managed to get the upstairs shower working - at least for the time being - which has saved us £650 for starters.
He's been a plumber for almost 40 years, and I'm not one. Ergo, if he says he's checked everything, I can only assume he has....so, from 8 o'clock this coming Sunday, we're digging up the lounge floor concrete.

Oh joy....

Given the symptoms you have described imho I think it’s a big mistake . As above without pressure testing the system ( which is fairly non invasive) I would not put a customer through the expense and disruption of taking up a concrete floor let alone the cost of making good . You have had some quality advice from myself and others that has not been acted on and would not of caused any major disruption or incurred any large cost . I hope your plumber is confident in his advice . How many radiators are fed by the pipework under the concrete floor? Could the affected rads of not been repiped omitting the need to take the floor up ? If the pipework under the concrete is sound and is not leaking are you paying for this and the making good ? Either way I wish you well and hope it gets sorted ..
Edit
The last system I tested was pressure tested for 10 mins at 2bar then 10 mins at 10 bar as all the pipe and fittings were j g speedfit . This was the central heating ( not fitted by myself) and the hot / cold and water mains water u/ ground mdpe . Several leaks were left by the so called plumber .. now I know that that system will never be under 10 bar of pressure so I’m 100%confident of all the pipework..

 

[Spectric]

Yes this can be a nightmare synario, having to tell a customer that you want to rip there house apart to fix a problem that you believe lies beneath. Personally I would always spend extra time at my expense to ensure that the problem is where I believe it is, much better to give up two or three hours of my time to save a customer from major disruption than having to tell them that all this mess was for nothing.

I do not understand why a lot of plumbers and heating engineers do not check there work more thoroughly, yes you might say that you have been doing this job for decades but just because there are no leaks when you have finished it when running at normal pressure does not always guarantee no leaks down the line. With a pressure tester you can test at three times or more normal pressure to ensure tightness, a good example here was a joint that held pressure until it was increased to twice normal pressure and then it seeped, not a leak but damp. Reason was that it had been an awkward joint and the flux had formed a seal which the higher test pressure must have displaced. In many ways testing plumbing is not much different to testing electrical systems in that you need logic and to isolate the problem by working down the system to illiminate everything not at fault until the fault is revealed.

 

[okeydokey]

Hi Cozzer - good luck - you may end up with must of the floor dug up and nothing found - after that keep digging more floor??

Looking at all of the previous contributions I and others still feel that you have ignored the mains incoming water pressure and stop **** issue. That looks as if it should be a start point rather than digging random holes in a concrete floor which might find if there is a water leak but you still have a high water pressure issue.

With all respect are you confident that you are not being scammed by people taking advantage of you?

Get the water supplier to come and look
after that and any recommendations they may make
Get British Gas to look at your boiler issue they don't have any axe to grind or inclination to take you for a ride.

I will look from the sidelines but don't intend to make further comment

 

[Cozzer]

You have had some quality advice from myself and others that has not been acted on and would not of caused any major disruption or incurred any large cost . I hope your plumber is confident in his advice . How many radiators are fed by the pipework under the concrete floor? Could the affected rads of not been repiped omitting the need to take the floor up ? If the pipework under the concrete is sound and is not leaking are you paying for this and the making good ? Either way I wish you well and hope it gets sorted ..

I've no doubt that the quality advice received from you and others is just that - quality - but as I've mentioned before, I know zilch about boilers/pressure/flow! If I open the airing cupboard, all I see is a mass of copper pipes going here there and everywhere (and usually an F22 flashing on the display!)
Add to that my only involvement on Sunday will be wielding a hammer and chisel...as for making good after the event....well....we'll have to see.
Nipping back to other questions asked, this is a Victorian semi, with the other half altered into 3 flats. A highish turnover of renters over the years, but the few I've spoken with claim no concerns with their supply.
As regards the number of radiators served under the concrete floor, it could be 3...that said, it might be 4 if you include the one in the attached conservatory. A few years ago we tried to determine how it was all routed - i.e. which was the last rad in the circuit - but I don't remember anyone coming to a decision...

 

[Bingy man]

Yes this can be a nightmare synario, having to tell a customer that you want to rip there house apart to fix a problem that you believe lies beneath. Personally I would always spend extra time at my expense to ensure that the problem is where I believe it is, much better to give up two or three hours of my time to save a customer from major disruption than having to tell them that all this mess was for nothing.

I do not understand why a lot of plumbers and heating engineers do not check there work more thoroughly, yes you might say that you have been doing this job for decades but just because there are no leaks when you have finished it when running at normal pressure does not always guarantee no leaks down the line. With a pressure tester you can test at three times or more normal pressure to ensure tightness, a good example here was a joint that held pressure until it was increased to twice normal pressure and then it seeped, not a leak but damp. Reason was that it had been an awkward joint and the flux had formed a seal which the higher test pressure must have displaced. In many ways testing plumbing is not much different to testing electrical systems in that you need logic and to isolate the problem by working down the system to illiminate everything not at fault until the fault is revealed.

I’ve always removed excess flux from pipes and joints after soldering especially the self cleaning types . Lost count of how many leaks I’ve fixed due to pin holes caused by flux residue ( tell tale sign is green crud on pipe ) . As far as testing yes I agree - with gas all flux has to be removed and the pipe work is tested before any tape or paint is applied. As for the integrity of our work we follow the training and guidelines and the methods we have been taught and we do our utmost to fulfill these methods. What we can’t do is prevent o rings from shrinking or plastic to degrade or for faults within the manufacturing process but by testing to a pressure far greater than what will normally be we have done as much as we possibly can .

 

[Bingy man]

Hi Cozzer - good luck - you may end up with must of the floor dug up and nothing found - after that keep digging more floor??

Looking at all of the previous contributions I and others still feel that you have ignored the mains incoming water pressure and stop **** issue. That looks as if it should be a start point rather than digging random holes in a concrete floor which might find if there is a water leak but you still have a high water pressure issue.

With all respect are you confident that you are not being scammed by people taking advantage of you?

Get the water supplier to come and look
after that and any recommendations they may make
Get British Gas to look at your boiler issue they don't have any axe to grind or inclination to take you for a ride.

I will look from the sidelines but don't intend to make further comment

If British Gas were to say ( it’s definitely leaking under the concrete floor) and you expose it and it’s all ok then they would have to pick up the cost inc any redecoration cost . So this can be invaluable- b. Gas won’t want this to happen so all efforts to illuminate any other potential issues will have been exhausted. Having done 30 odd years with them trust me I know . In addition those customers on a b gas contract have £1200 allowance for access to a problem fitting or pipe .. so again this is good advice.

 

[Bingy man]

I've no doubt that the quality advice received from you and others is just that - quality - but as I've mentioned before, I know zilch about boilers/pressure/flow! If I open the airing cupboard, all I see is a mass of copper pipes going here there and everywhere (and usually an F22 flashing on the display!)
Add to that my only involvement on Sunday will be wielding a hammer and chisel...as for making good after the event....well....we'll have to see.
Nipping back to other questions asked, this is a Victorian semi, with the other half altered into 3 flats. A highish turnover of renters over the years, but the few I've spoken with claim no concerns with their supply.
As regards the number of radiators served under the concrete floor, it could be 3...that said, it might be 4 if you include the one in the attached conservatory. A few years ago we tried to determine how it was all routed - i.e. which was the last rad in the circuit - but I don't remember anyone coming to a decision...

I completely understand but many of the members here collectively have hundreds of years experience in these matters hence when you or any other member asks for advice you get the best of the best with no bias . It’s very easy to be miss led by unscrupulous individuals who just want to take the money . Best example of this is the heating engineer that tells you your boiler needs a new fan £200 + labour but the boiler still doesn’t work - ah it must be the gas valve £250 + labour same result -it can only be the pcb then £350 +labour again it still doesn’t work- ah it’s time you had a new boiler as it’s beyond repair £2400 inc labour . But you have just spent £800 + labour on parts the boiler didn’t need

 

[Spectric]

I think all the trades are now contaminated by dodgy unscrupulous individuals who just get everyone else a bad name in their quest for a fast buck. They want to get the job done, take the money and onto the next, I always found it better to explain things to people and also that sometimes a diagnosis might be wrong because it could be hidden by another fault. Just hoodwinking people with technical jargon is not in my opinion the way to represent your trade and get returning customers.

If I turned up at Cozzers house I would proceed in a logical manner.

1) Listen to his story and experiences.
2) From this I would be checking the mains pressure and listening to the noises to determine what it actually is, maybe water hammer.
3) I would not proceed onto the boiler issues until I had the mains pressure / stop **** resolved as this is a potential issue for all else.
4) When the mains pressure / noises have been resolved I have something to move forward with and have now discounted high pressure / low flow from causing any other issues.
5) Next is to turn off the isolators on the filter, (why is the filter housing spanner left there ? )
6) Remove the filling loop as it looks like this gives me access to the return pipe to the boiler and attach pressure tester.
7) Find a suitable location to isolate the boiler feed to the rads.
8) Pressure this part of the system and leave for at least four hours or overnight.
9) If pressure has fallen then your issue is within this section, if not move down the pipework and get to the last radiator you have access to.
10) At this radiator you need to isolate the pipework from going any further so all you have is that last rad with a feed and return in the circuit and nothing else. You can now remove isolation in 7) and pressure test again as before.
11) If pressure has not held then again you have found a problem otherwise this part of your system is sound.
12) Fit pressure tester to other part of the system using feed and blanking the return, now pressurise to 3 bar and wait.
14) If the pressure holds then you need to do a big rethink and start looking at your system in a lot more detail, where else do pipes run and use a listening rod to attempt to trace the leak under floors.
15) All else has failed and you have a leak in the last part of your system, if I was convinced I had fully tested and done everything possible and that the leak can only be under the concrete floor then first thing to look at is where any pipes exit the floor, keep the system pressurised and then start breaking out the concrete, get an hydraulic breaker as it will make the job easier. The better option if possible would be to fit new pipework above the concrete in false skirting boards and such to save time and cost in digging the floor out which could lead to other issues such as damp problems.