EVs again - the sensible approach

[TRITON]

£4,800 for an electric bike??? WTF??? That could buy you a motor scooter or a second-hand motorbike!

I know, but ive no license and tbh ive been a cyclist for 25 years, so its what im used to and getting on these old legs need a bit of assistance getting up the hills,especially when carrying shopping.
The cost of all 'capable' full suspension bikes is partly down to the cost of the motor and battery taking up about £1800, and in the cycling world, you get what you pay for component wise. For example a 3000-3500 bike, the components are just not up to any sort of intensive use or longevity. On a suspension bike the main parts are the suspension bits, on the cheaper options, these would retail at about £250 for the fork, £150 for the shock. By going the slightly more expensive, you get a fork that retails at nearly a grand and a shock retails about £350-400 Plus suspension frames can start about the thousand mark. So when you deduct that along with the expensive motor and battery, you can actually see that the deal is quite a good one. This bike I've bought can handle real hard on mtbing, whereas the cheaper bike cannot. 20 years of building bikes have taught me much on bikes,components and their real worth.

 

[ian33a]

I know, but ive no license and tbh ive been a cyclist for 25 years, so its what im used to and getting on these old legs need a bit of assistance getting up the hills,especially when carrying shopping.
The cost of all 'capable' full suspension bikes is partly down to the cost of the motor and battery taking up about £1800, and in the cycling world, you get what you pay for component wise. For example a 3000-3500 bike, the components are just not up to any sort of intensive use or longevity. On a suspension bike the main parts are the suspension bits, on the cheaper options, these would retail at about £250 for the fork, £150 for the shock. By going the slightly more expensive, you get a fork that retails at nearly a grand and a shock retails about £350-400 Plus suspension frames can start about the thousand mark. So when you deduct that along with the expensive motor and battery, you can actually see that the deal is quite a good one. This bike I've bought can handle real hard on mtbing, whereas the cheaper bike cannot. 20 years of building bikes have taught me much on bikes,components and their real worth.

Beyond a certain point the price you pay for a bike is down to demand and what a consumer is prepared to pay in order to be different. Off road bikes price hike, as you have stated based upon ruggedness of components - no sense single track riding and snapping forks every twenty minutes. Road bikes tend to be priced based upon weight and the lighter the bike the more it costs. Just don't put a lump of lard like me on a £10K light weight road bike and expect Strava bests and local legends on every segment.

Below a certain price a bike is capable but not exceptional and becomes an introductory mode of transport which craves improvement.

£4,800 actually isn't that much to spend on a non electric bike let alone one with a motor and a battery pack and control hardware. Yes, if you are from the cycling clips and three speed hub based gears then £4,800 seems like a fortune. It's also a daft investment if you use it to ride to the station and back as it's a recipe to throw your money away. If you enjoy cycling and can afford and justify it, why not?

Me ? : off road and road cycling but, just because it's easier to get out there, it's more road cycling these days. I'm still able to turn the cranks myself and turn in decent enough times but there are times when dragging a heavy mountain bike up an incline seems like a chore that an electric motor would take away. ... but not quite yet. Same is true for electric cars, still too much in love with internal combustion but I can see the appeal of EV's.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

A £4-5k bike probably aligns with a £80-100k car.

Bikes and cars can both deliver 80%+ of the functionality at 20% of the cost. Bikes I can't comment on, but a £20k hatchback will do precisely what a £100k premium 4WD or high performance car will deliver - unless crossing deserts or track days are part of the requirement.

Getting 2-5 people from A-B on normal roads - a modern hatch is entirely capable with minimum stress of covering 400 miles in a day and comfortably exceeding speed limits (if wanted)

For most of us the 20% is generally what can be reasonably afforded. But if you have the cash and wish to indulge (often the honest reason) or have a specialist requirement (occassionally the case) - it is just a personal choice.

 

[Jameshow]

Take a Cannondale supersix hi mod ultegra is £5000 dura ace £10,000 yet the ultegra is 99% of the durace.

Or further down the pecking order a 105 at £2500 is 95% of the dura ace bike.

Unless racing do you really need top drawer bikes probably not! Races have been win on ultegra bikes that's for sure!

Cheers James

 

[niemeyjt]

Remember the physics - a circuit needs at least two connections - a feed and a return. Trains and trams use one conductor overhead for feed with a return through steel wheels and steel tracks.

Buses, on the other hand, with rubber tyres and no metal tracks need two overhead lines for feed and return.

Some of the mock-up photos do show the double pickups overhead - but many seem to overlook it. And the complexity of getting two wires to cross and branch without short circuits is greater than a single line like a train (or dodgem)

Sure, here in Switzerland we have electric buses - and the overhead wires do split and cross - but at set points, with the bus following a known fixed route and probably at not much over 30kph. None of which matches the projected lorry usage. And the buses also have a diesel engine / generator and it is used.

And let's not get onto the concept of stupid motorways - and closing a lane!

My preference is trains - but what a mistake to build on all the goods yards. Mind you, if they can flatten houses for HS2 I am sure they can flatten more for replacement goods yards.

 

[Jacob]

Remember the physics - a circuit needs at least two connections - a feed and a return. Trains and trams use one conductor overhead for feed with a return through steel wheels and steel tracks.

Buses, on the other hand, with rubber tyres and no metal tracks need two overhead lines for feed and return.

Some of the mock-up photos do show the double pickups overhead - but many seem to overlook it. And the complexity of getting two wires to cross and branch without short circuits is greater than a single line like a train (or dodgem)

Sure, here in Switzerland we have electric buses - and the overhead wires do split and cross - but at set points, with the bus following a known fixed route and probably at not much over 30kph. None of which matches the projected lorry usage. And the buses also have a diesel engine / generator and it is used.

And let's not get onto the concept of stupid motorways - and closing a lane!

My preference is trains - but what a mistake to build on all the goods yards. Mind you, if they can flatten houses for HS2 I am sure they can flatten more for replacement goods yards.

Yes trains a good idea!
Trolley buses used to change connectors at junctions. Conductor would hop out with a long bamboo pole and swap pickups from one set to another. I was that man, briefly, during one of my many failed attempts at a career.
Battery EVs have a double demand - not only have to carry a battery but also have to have electricity conducted to a charging point. Not a good idea except for short trips, milk floats etc.

 

[xy mosian]

Trolley buses used to change connectors at junctions. Conductor would hop out with a long bamboo pole and swap pickups from one set to another.

The system here, in Bradford, was slightly different. The points were changed, when needed, by a dip of the 'acelerator'. Timing was a real art. Sometimes the driver got it wrong, this generated a loud bang and cheer from the passengers. That was the time the conductor got out his long pole, bamboo with hook, to re-attach. This was in 1969 when I arrived here.
geoff

 

[D_W]

I know, but ive no license and tbh ive been a cyclist for 25 years, so its what im used to and getting on these old legs need a bit of assistance getting up the hills,especially when carrying shopping.
The cost of all 'capable' full suspension bikes is partly down to the cost of the motor and battery taking up about £1800, and in the cycling world, you get what you pay for component wise. For example a 3000-3500 bike, the components are just not up to any sort of intensive use or longevity. On a suspension bike the main parts are the suspension bits, on the cheaper options, these would retail at about £250 for the fork, £150 for the shock. By going the slightly more expensive, you get a fork that retails at nearly a grand and a shock retails about £350-400 Plus suspension frames can start about the thousand mark. So when you deduct that along with the expensive motor and battery, you can actually see that the deal is quite a good one. This bike I've bought can handle real hard on mtbing, whereas the cheaper bike cannot. 20 years of building bikes have taught me much on bikes,components and their real worth.

Once you get the batteries doing the work for you, you can just go to all steel and rigid!

(of course, that won't help your tail, nor will it help when you're past battery range). I couldn't begin to comment on the composites as matrix steel was the last bike I got that I paid attention to (18 pounds for a road bike or slightly more and at the time, composite was coming along and taking a few pounds off and was the bees knees, supposedly).

I see the world of baseball bats has been taken over by composites and some of them have a swing life of about 100 They are "game bats" that can cost $100 to $500. Sitting behind my desk, I have a bat from 1992 that is illegal in current competition (Too hot) that has hit thousands of balls and could still hit illegally long home runs - those rules didn't exist when I was a kid, though - they came about due to ball speeds bettering reaction time with predictable results. We just played a little on edge back then if you were pitching or at third base.

Joking aside, I like to think of the ebikes and such as cost per mile after maintenance and repair. When they exceed a decent used car, it starts to elicit scrunch face.

 

[Spectric]

Trains have to be the better solution, an ICE lorry can carry bout 38 tonnes, a modern freight train can move 90 containers, thats a lot less lorries and no issue with making them electric. Both Southampton and London Gateway are using new 775 metre freight trains, operated by freightliner and will take 300,000 trucks off our roads each year with other ports looking to follow so the future is railway, back to where the victorians new about moving people and cargo.

 

[D_W]

Yes trains a good idea!
Trolley buses used to change connectors at junctions. Conductor would hop out with a long bamboo pole and swap pickups from one set to another. I was that man, briefly, during one of my many failed attempts at a career.
Battery EVs have a double demand - not only have to carry a battery but also have to have electricity conducted to a charging point. Not a good idea except for short trips, milk floats etc.

transit rail burns about 1 gallon for each 50 passenger miles. That's not that great. The quality of the fuel and the emissions may also not be that strict.

A battery EV of almost any kind will match that.

The *potential* efficiency of transit rail is much higher, but that assumes that the rail only runs at capacity - that figure is about 4 times higher than the actual burned fuel.

Actual transit bus experience in the US is about 25 miles per gallon, but there's no need to pay to park and the buses don't pay fuel taxes here - so they're not really burning less, but they're not paying about 1/4th of the fuel cost that other means need to.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Both Southampton and London Gateway are using new 775 metre freight trains, operated by freightliner and will take 300,000 trucks off our roads each year ...

So these trains must go door to door?

 

[D_W]

Trains have to be the better solution, an ICE lorry can carry bout 38 tonnes, a modern freight train can move 90 containers, thats a lot less lorries and no issue with making them electric. Both Southampton and London Gateway are using new 775 metre freight trains, operated by freightliner and will take 300,000 trucks off our roads each year with other ports looking to follow so the future is railway, back to where the victorians new about moving people and cargo.

maximum potential ton miles for trains here is about 500, but you can more easily load a freight train than you can a heavy passenger train (or commuter rail) with lots of pounds of people.

The US DOE pegs transit rail at 50 miles per person per gallon, and under 40 for commuter rail. Maybe your commuter rail is better utilized there (it's well utilized here - it's just limited in geographic scope, or it would be worse.)

Ton miles of freight by truck here is something like 150 miles per gallon for each ton of freight. (that's assuming slightly greater than 1/2 loaded on average vs. the road weight limits). I don't know what freight trains actually do here - it's not 500.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

This is different:

https://iea.org.uk/blog/rail-versus-road

 

[Cabinetman]

This is different:

https://iea.org.uk/blog/rail-versus-road

If you compare the way a train is built with cast-iron wheels etc, to a coach or truck it seems obvious to me that the amount of energy needed to make it go must be higher for trains.
I’ve always found it very annoying that the barriers come down and umpteen cars and their passengers have to stop and watch a train with two people on it trundle past. It’s never made any sense to me at all. And when the train stops the passengers have to then get in their cars, failing that queue up and pay again to use another form of transport it’s just so inconvenient.
Never liked the things- just in case you hadn’t guessed.

 

[ian33a]

Take a Cannondale supersix hi mod ultegra is £5000 dura ace £10,000 yet the ultegra is 99% of the durace.

Or further down the pecking order a 105 at £2500 is 95% of the dura ace bike.

Unless racing do you really need top drawer bikes probably not! Races have been win on ultegra bikes that's for sure!

Cheers James

The only spanner in the works is that Dura-ace and Ultegra can be set up with electric Di2 shift while 105 and below cannot.

For many, Di2 is of no interest. For me, and it's just my choice, it's a must have and I wouldn't now buy a road bike without an electric shift.

Otherwise, I agree - Dura-ace isn't worth the extra cost above Ultegra.

 

[MikeJhn]

I hope DI2 is more reliable than the Mavic electric shift of twenty years ago, many a day I would come back from a ride on a fixed wheel.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Railways - a 19th century solution to an 18th century problem.

 

[Jacob]

This is interesting. I'd never heard of the "Electrobat" etc The lost history of the electric car – and what it tells us about the future of transport
The don't use the expression "boys' toys" but it is certainly was a theme, from early days.

 

[TominDales]

Simple - no batteries required - tried and tested.
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-scheme-for-motorway-cables-to-power-lorriesBut not good for the boys-toys market, even though reminiscent of fairground dodgems.
Takes me back to one of my first of many jobs as a bus conductor on electric trolley buses!

Interesting. In Germany there is already a study underway on a motorway for this. The truck will still need a battery to get it from the motorway to the delivery point. This seems a good way to solve the range problem for long range delivery. Also as autonomous vehicle come in, they can pack more trucks into the EV lane and in effect cheaply expand the rail network.
The alternative is a biofuel or hydrogen, both are much less efficient. It will however be a huge investment electrify the major trunk roads.

 

[TominDales]

If you really think about the proposal then it is completely stupid and absurd, just like HS2 and many other big government projects like cross rail which will be no use once the sea levels rise, so has the government got a secret money tree or something because they seem to want to waste as much money as they can.

They want to electrify motorways so electric lorries can be used, do we not already have electrified routes called railways! so put the containers onto the railways for transport between major hubs and then smaller vehicles to deliver within a radius of each hub. Is the human race losing the inteligence to think or is it that dummmmies work for the government in a special stupidity department, perhaps as we have ministers for everthing these days there will be a minister for stupidity and can have an office near to the minister for farting.

UK rail is pretty much at capacity. And lots of problems trying to share lines between high speed passenger and rail freight. A mix of systems is the likely answer. The problem with electrifying the motorway will be up-front cost, so I guess it will be rolled out slower than required.