EV owners - Car Tax

[johnb80]

This is quite a fascinating thread it shows quite stark differences in opinion. It is possible that in some way everyone is partially correct and there are good points from both sides.

Absolutely, amazing from where the thread started - Road Tax!

I am not anti EV at all, some of them are amazing vehicles and I may indeed buy one at some point, if they become remotely affordable or someone does a decent big van.
The belief that they will solve the environmental issues they claim to fix is likely wishful thinking and at worst a calculated con.

They fix the huge amount of pollution that is emitted from the tail pipes of ICE vehicles.

There are so many intrinsic problems that must be solved first, people living in terraced streets and flats cannot charge up at home,

Can they fill up with diesel or petrol at home? Simply recharge whilst you do the family shopping / cinema / restaurant / show etc. It just needs slightly different thinking.

the grid is not equipped to take the power needed for charging everyones car anyway

National Grid say it is:-

Do the electricity grid's wires have enough capacity for charging EVs?
The simple answer is yes. The highest peak electricity demand in the UK in recent years was 62GW in 2002. Since then, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to improvements in energy efficiency.

Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002, and this is well within the range the grid can capably handle.

Nevertheless, at National Grid we’re working with the distribution networks, government, the regulator and industry to provide the green energy infrastructure around Britain – the wires, the connections to charge points – to support the needs of a decarbonised transport network into the future.

it takes too long to charge and there are already people waiting to charge at motorway services.

Only a couple times in 8 years Ive had to wait for a few minutes, most of the time you see vacant chargers everywhere. They dont take too long to charge, it's wise to stop after a couple hours driving on safety grounds, I usually need the loo after 2 or 3 hours. Stopping for a coffee and loo put's more than enough charge for the next 2 to 3 hours so time is irrelevant. MG5 20% to 80% takes 40 minutes, thats approx 40 kWh which gives around 180 miles added to the range. The rate of charge is 270 miles per hour so a 25 minute stop adds 112 miles or thereabouts. Unless youre a driver that must be able to do 600 miles without stopping and fill up in 2 minutes it really isnt a problem.

Toyota have been making fantastic hybrids for ages and have even done a hydrogen vehicle.

Aye, all of that is true, their Mirai hydrogen vehicle was a disaster, the filters needed replacing almost weekly, Hydogen fuel is extremely expensive and inefficient with filling stations non existent. It's a common myth that petrol engines can be converted easily to run on Hydrogen, Toyota had a go and failed badly with this one.

This is because they worked out that pure ev was not the best way forward.

Have you got evidence of this?

The exhaust of a modern petrol engine is very clean indeed, perhaps alternative fuels is a better way, certainly more energy dense and lighter.

Than what?

The car industry doesn`t really want to make EV`s, they are only doing so because they have been told to by governments or face fines and sanctions.

A dont think Elon Musk would agree with you, nor would SAIC, BYD, Polestar, Omada and more. Fines and sanctions are country related, not all countries use these sticks as it were.

The rule where the total fleet of cars sold must be under a certain value makes no sense and is why we can`t get a new Landcruser in the UK.

Not sure I've heard about this, please enlighten us.

They will have an effect but it might actually be better to just keep old cars that are already manufactured working longer, no one needs to buy a new car every 2 years.

Agreed

 

[Vulcan]

Absolutely, amazing from where the thread started - Road Tax!


They fix the huge amount of pollution that is emitted from the tail pipes of ICE vehicles.


Can they fill up with diesel or petrol at home? Simply recharge whilst you do the family shopping / cinema / restaurant / show etc. It just needs slightly different thinking.


National Grid say it is:-

Do the electricity grid's wires have enough capacity for charging EVs?
The simple answer is yes. The highest peak electricity demand in the UK in recent years was 62GW in 2002. Since then, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to improvements in energy efficiency.

Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002, and this is well within the range the grid can capably handle.

Nevertheless, at National Grid we’re working with the distribution networks, government, the regulator and industry to provide the green energy infrastructure around Britain – the wires, the connections to charge points – to support the needs of a decarbonised transport network into the future.


Only a couple times in 8 years Ive had to wait for a few minutes, most of the time you see vacant chargers everywhere. They dont take too long to charge, it's wise to stop after a couple hours driving on safety grounds, I usually need the loo after 2 or 3 hours. Stopping for a coffee and loo put's more than enough charge for the next 2 to 3 hours so time is irrelevant. MG5 20% to 80% takes 40 minutes, thats approx 40 kWh which gives around 180 miles added to the range. The rate of charge is 270 miles per hour so a 25 minute stop adds 112 miles or thereabouts. Unless youre a driver that must be able to do 600 miles without stopping and fill up in 2 minutes it really isnt a problem.


Aye, all of that is true, their Mirai hydrogen vehicle was a disaster, the filters needed replacing almost weekly, Hydogen fuel is extremely expensive and inefficient with filling stations non existent. It's a common myth that petrol engines can be converted easily to run on Hydrogen, Toyota had a go and failed badly with this one.


Have you got evidence of this?


Than what?


A dont think Elon Musk would agree with you, nor would SAIC, BYD, Polestar, Omada and more. Fines and sanctions are country related, not all countries use these sticks as it were.


Not sure I've heard about this, please enlighten us.


Agreed

You’ve done a good job John. There still seem to be lots of people who are either badly informed or still willing to make stuff up.

A couple of links you may wish to add to your armoury for the next onslaught.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electric-vehicles-costs-charging-and-infrastructure

https://www.faircharge.co.uk/little-book-of-ev-myths

I read today about the number of charging points in the UK. Including Public, Private and Work charging points the total is around 930,000. Over 1,000 public chargers were installed last month in the UK. More details at Zapmap if anyone’s interested.

https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/how-many-charging-points

 

[Vulcan]

You constantly say you’re not anti EV but keep coming to threads to knock them down. Doesn’t stack up for me…

I hear it all the time. I think they say it so that people will listen to them, and then repeat misinformation or a myth that’s already been debunked.

 

[johnb80]

You’ve done a good job John. There still seem to be lots of people who are either badly informed or still willing to make stuff up.

Thank you, why let truth get in the way of a popular story line

A couple of links you may wish to add to your armoury for the next onslaught.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electric-vehicles-costs-charging-and-infrastructure

https://www.faircharge.co.uk/little-book-of-ev-myths

I read today about the number of charging points in the UK. Including Public, Private and Work charging points the total is around 930,000. Over 1,000 public chargers were installed last month in the UK. More details at Zapmap if anyone’s interested.

https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/how-many-charging-points

All noted, thank you.

 

[Doris]

The problem with EV cars isn’t the technology—it’s the owners. Many of them seem to treat it like a personality trait, much like some vegans, where it becomes the only thing they talk about.

Surely you could say the same thing for non EV BMW, Land Rover, Audi drivers etc? It's not the car's fault the way they drive but the owners.

This is not aimed at all BMW, Land Rover or Audi drivers btw but how the average owner is seen by the general population.

Aye, all of that is true, their Mirai hydrogen vehicle was a disaster, the filters needed replacing almost weekly, Hydogen fuel is extremely expensive and inefficient with filling stations non existent. It's a common myth that petrol engines can be converted easily to run on Hydrogen, Toyota had a go and failed badly with this one.

Toyota may have failed badly with this one but at least they tried. If you look at past achievements with technology isn't that how progress is really made from things going wrong or not always being a financial success?

 

[Beau]

Yes, well done John for plugging away. You have the patience of a saint

 

[John Hughes01]

I have always fealt that our well developed IC engine should be focussed on more. If I got 30mpg out of my beetle in the 60s/70s I was delighted! Look how efficient engines,especially hybrid,are now. Does anyone remember the english guy who developed an engine that ran on water - last seen boarding a 'plane to the US with his engine in his hand baggage - made of plastic! He was never seen again.
The government should consider deveoping hybrids rather than living in silly fantasy land.

 

[johnb80]

Does anyone remember the english guy who developed an engine that ran on water - last seen boarding a 'plane to the US with his engine in his hand baggage - made of plastic! He was never seen again.

He was never seen. It never happened, just urban myth.

 

[John Brown]

I have always fealt that our well developed IC engine should be focussed on more. If I got 30mpg out of my beetle in the 60s/70s I was delighted! Look how efficient engines,especially hybrid,are now. Does anyone remember the english guy who developed an engine that ran on water - last seen boarding a 'plane to the US with his engine in his hand baggage - made of plastic! He was never seen again.
The government should consider deveoping hybrids rather than living in silly fantasy land.

I think that plane was flying to fantasy land, rather than the US. That's where I bought my everlasting bottle of Guinness.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

You’ve done a good job John. There still seem to be lots of people who are either badly informed or still willing to make stuff up.

A couple of links you may wish to add to your armoury for the next onslaught.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electric-vehicles-costs-charging-and-infrastructure

https://www.faircharge.co.uk/little-book-of-ev-myths

I read today about the number of charging points in the UK. Including Public, Private and Work charging points the total is around 930,000. Over 1,000 public chargers were installed last month in the UK. More details at Zapmap if anyone’s interested.

https://www.zap-map.com/ev-stats/how-many-charging-points

I think the EV brigade, of which I am largely supportive, need to avoid overselling the statistics.

Of the 930k chargers:

• ~850k are private or at work - I assume not available to the general public
• ~70k are public chargers
• 33k public chargers are more than 8KW - capable of charging an EV from 20-80% in minutes to an hour or so - usable for stopping on longer trips
• 43k are below 8KW - a similar 20-80% charge will take several hours (typically 4+) - not much use for a "slightly extended coffee break" type stop.

Having noted the above, there are currently ~1.3m EV registered in the UK. Many EV owners with off road home charging facilities rarely use a public charger as charging at home is much cheaper.

Question - are the 33k fast chargers that currently exist able to meet current demand, and is the growth in the fast charging network sufficient to match the growth in EVs.

What would be helpful is if Zapmap could publish hourly utilisation figures for the charger network. Even if overall capacity is adequate, I suspect actual availability is heavily influenced by time of day and region.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Toyota may have failed badly with this one but at least they tried. If you look at past achievements with technology isn't that how progress is really made from things going wrong or not always being a financial success?

That Toyota kept their hydrogen options open at relatively small cost may have been a sensible piece of business risk management. But it was always a non-starter given current science and technologies.

Massive energy losses in hydrogen use are completely short cut with batteries - electricity generated is used to electrolyse water to produce hydrogen, compressed, transported, stored, decompressed and used to generate electricity in a fuel cell. There are other issues - losses, embrittlement etc.

Unless electricity is available at close to zero cost (unlikely for several decades), or different technologies or science developed to overcome inefficiencies it will remain a specialist application.

 

[Vulcan]

Latest figures from Zapmap.

From what I’ve read public charging is last resort for the majority of current BEV drivers. Most only add enough additional charge to get them home. Using a rapid or ultra rapid charger may only require a quick top up.


.

 

[johnb80]

Toyota may have failed badly with this one but at least they tried. If you look at past achievements with technology isn't that how progress is really made from things going wrong or not always being a financial success?

It wasnt a critisism, it was a reply to Ollie78 who stated that Toyota have made 'fantastic hybrids and even a Hydrogen car', the point is for so many reasons it was a disaster, a complete non starter.

 

[johnb80]

Latest figures from Zapmap.

View attachment 198997



From what I’ve read public charging is last resort for the majority of current BEV drivers. Most only add enough additional charge to get them home. Using a rapid or ultra rapid charger may only require a quick top up..

And why wouldnt you?

Perhaps the exception is Tesla owners using the Tesla charging network which a lot cheaper than any of the other public charging networks.

 

[Vulcan]

Perhaps the exception is Tesla owners using the Tesla charging network which a lot cheaper than any of the other public charging networks.

Still not as cheap as home charging, except those that managed to get free charging from Tesla when they bought their car!

 

[Vulcan]