'Este' Plane Restoration - 50mm Iron

[D_W]

I actually came to this thread to tell the original poster to show a picture face in to the frog with the plane assembled. I'll tell you if this plane has the potential to be a real dandy. If it's made in india, it may be crudely finished, but it doesn't mean that it'll matter.

Things that are deal stoppers are stuff such as lighter weight metal lever caps and adjuster wheels - the latter usually comes with the former. there are also frog designs that leave a large amount of the iron unsupported and they generally can't deal with hardwoods well.

 

[Ttrees]

I had a LN 62 that was hollow exactly to LN's spec. I demonstrated that it resulted in difficulty planing a board that was also flat, and then flattened it. If it had been out of flat the opposite direction, it would've been fine.

Instead of hiding the correction, when I resold it, I touted the correction and someone in France bought it for $125 more than the price of new, and when he received it, he glowed about how precisely it would plane.

Rob doesn't have much incentive to talk about flattening the sole of planes that he's selling, but they may be closer to flat. Toolmakers don't really use the tools that they make, at least not in the context of work, and few do much of a volume of work now, anyway, unless it's the crude kind of power tool support work that jakob talks about. In that case, it doesn't matter.

I had somewhere around 10 LN planes. 8 of them needed nothing and had no noticeable problems in use. two of them were hollow at their spec - i sold the first one disclosing the problem - it was an 8, and even that one was difficult to deal with match planing boards.

Of all of the old vintage planes that I've ever gotten, which is a huge number, any that were significantly worn but not abused never had a hollow sole, all were convex instead or close to dead flat. that includes wooden planes. I had one stanley 7 that was about 1/100th of an inch hollow in the middle and it was sharpened a couple of times and basically unused. It was a plane from right around WWII or slightly before, and it's possible that it didn't get used because it was already an outdated tool.

I can't say I've checked how flat my planes were David, as I only have feelers bought recently and no Starret or equivelent straight edge, but I do recall one of my 5 1/2's having a thicker sole on one side, which I lapped and luckily got away with it.

Not sure if you've read the other thread mentioned, but I suggested as such what you say being
preferable.
Seeing as you haven't replied on the other thread, I might as well ask here,
where do you find does a plane hinge at this tolerance, and your preference for convexity.
Is your preference the same with every length bench plane?

Tom

 

[Jameshow]

i doubt anyone did that. i would imagine if they had a plane that was problematic match planing boards (a couple of thousandths hollow and it becomes almost impossible to do accurately, unless big glue gaps are OK on the ends) they addressed the problem without having a clue how many thousandths it was or wasn't.

either that or just found a plane that was flatter. Anyone doing coarse work wouldn't notice it in the first place, though. Wooden planes would have had their soles cleaned and setup by the cabinetmaker before that, probably by scraping and planing.

The internet gave the average person quick access to seeing that they could get imported feelers and a starrett straight edge. David Charlesworth talked long ago about a clifton (not sure if he disclosed it as clifton, but later confirmed) that was 7 thousandths hollow in its length and completely unusable.

it's true that you can lean on a plane and flex the sole. It's also true that you can't do much about the sole being biased as the plane is entering and exiting a board, and it will plane the ends off of a board no matter how hard you lean on it while it travels down the middle. BTDT.

I doubt cabinetmakers worked with swayed stones 200 years ago, but I think the three stone method is a modern thing. I think anyone with some skill can take emery and two stones and correct both of them working lengths and diagonals, but a cabinetmaker would've been skilled enough after that to work over the ends of the stone when working off the burr on the back of a tool.

I'm sure that plenty of joiners swayed tools because they weren't doing very fine work - I have two that came from a long retired joiner in the UK. they're shaped in a way that they could be used to check the radius of garden tractor tires.

I guess this whole thing of fine work vs. not falls apart on forums when people who don't do fine work want to speak for those who do, and people who do fine work want to dictate overly rigid rules to those who don't do fine work.

Welcome back mate!

 

[mikej460]

I have a water damaged Record No. 4 that I rather too eagerly wished to renovate. I watched a few vids including Mr. Sellers and used a flat slab of granite, lots and lots of various grits of good quality sandpaper. After hours trying to remove the rust I gave up and put it away - I have many more important things to do than to spend what felt like the gestation period of an elephant trying to restore a sub £40 plane..

 

[D_W]

I can't say I've checked how flat my planes were David, as I only have feelers bought recently and no Starret or equivelent straight edge, but I do recall one of my 5 1/2's having a thicker sole on one side, which I lapped and luckily got away with it.

Not sure if you've read the other thread mentioned, but I suggested as such what you say being
preferable.
Seeing as you haven't replied on the other thread, I might as well ask here,
where do you find does a plane hinge at this tolerance, and your preference for convexity.
Is your preference the same with every length bench plane?

Tom

I really don't know where (at what measurement) you feel a plane rocking - i think it's not as simple as just that as the assumption is that convexity will be like a geometric figure drawn with a bent rod. I think it's not usually that even. It's more a condition of use. I can only mention extremes - an early stanley 8 jointer that I bought was a full 1/100th convex (in inches) and I took most of that out over a period of about two hours with a very coarse small sanding block and then checked with the lap - same kind of process, but I don't remember getting perfection.

it's more of a feel thing than a measure thing. I have measured secondarily, but can plane with a plane and get an idea of what it's able to do with coarse shavings and then gradually finer. The fact that an LN plane at spec (about 1.5 thousandths hollow - an LN 62 and an 8, in my case) can be a problem was a shock to me as I was really measuring both at the time with an intent to return...at least the first one. I know enough about making things flat that I figured I would be courteous and just fix the second one.

Long story short, since it's feel, I don't know. You'll find a jointer a hundredth convex to be a little too much, and 2 thousandths is a plane you'll treasure if it's off that much in the right direction. But it's important to actually make things and then diagnose problems, just like it's important to make things and see 1.5 thousandths hollow and not write off what you observe just because 1.5 thousandths seems like a small number.

Whatever the case is, if you can plane a matched joint on a panel right off of a plane and not have to do any follow up truing other than literally cleaning up the rough edges and then flipping the boards together, that's a good plane. The joint should close with almost no clamping pressure - not that it's necessary to be that perfect, but the reality is that it's not any harder to plane it that way. For very good work eons ago, I can't imagine it wouldn't have been an economic issue to do visually acceptable work as fast as possible, and that's had by getting work right off of the plane or off of the saw wherever you can.

 

[D_W]

Welcome back mate!

Thanks...I'm just passing through the various forums as someone who got a nice set of my chisels unintentionally tricked me into posting again briefly - because there were so many assertions about the chisels themselves - it reminded me at the same time why I don't post much and won't post much in the future - most of the responses are from people who don't know what they're talking about and don't want to know.

And the things that had me super busy the last two months (mostly kids, but some other issues that aren't that exciting but were time consuming) are over until late summer...that gave me a brief reprieve to look around.

But the break from the forums and going full rabbit hole is so much better than retreading the same arguments, so I won't last long before my eyes cross over something like appalling listings for blue spruce C.S.Os and endless overwrought discussions about marking aids.

 

[planesleuth]

omg! Just flatten it, sharpen it and then get on with it. Tools are for doing work with' not fussing over.

 

[Jacob]

I have a water damaged Record No. 4 that I rather too eagerly wished to renovate. I watched a few vids including Mr. Sellers and used a flat slab of granite, lots and lots of various grits of good quality sandpaper. After hours trying to remove the rust I gave up and put it away - I have many more important things to do than to spend what felt like the gestation period of an elephant trying to restore a sub £40 plane..

As I keep saying if you want to know if a plane is flat you rub it up and down on a flat abrasive for a few seconds and the highlights will show.
If you want to flatten it you rub it up and down on flooded-wet wet n dry on a flat surface.
It's designed for the job! It's quick and easy. I'm amazed that all these plane obsessives have missed it!
Coarse grit will do - no need to go beyond 80 grit but finish it to and fro against a straight scrap of wood* so the scratches are parallel and in line with the sole.
* Not a "straight edge" as such, just a straight ish scrap of wood. You don't have to rush out and buy anything, least of all feeler gauges!

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/plane-sole-lapping-the-easy-way.132823/

 

[Adam W.]

omg! Just flatten it, sharpen it and then get on with it. Tools are for doing work with' not fussing over.

Oh!

 

[Sideways]

Thanks David, I always appreciate your insights

As an aside, "swayed" stones, is this as in "swale" - a hollow or shallow dip ?
I had to look that one up as it's 15th century english and not a term I was familiar with, or in common use.
The dictionary says english, from the eastern counties, but most current examples of come from the USA.
I'll go look at a map now and find out if if our place "Swaledale" - which is a rural valley - is named for this ...

 

[Jacob]

Swale is a river name of Anglo-Saxon origin and is thought to mean whirling, swirling swallowing river.
Hope that helps!

 

[D_W]

Thanks David, I always appreciate your insights

As an aside, "swayed" stones, is this as in "swale" - a hollow or shallow dip ?
I had to look that one up as it's 15th century english and not a term I was familiar with, or in common use.
The dictionary says english, from the eastern counties, but most current examples of come from the USA.
I'll go look at a map now and find out if if our place "Swaledale" - which is a rural valley - is named for this ...

Sway is a term for a gradual dip in a surface that should be flat. Maybe a poor choice in terms of narrow use, but it's often used to describe an anvil that's had a gradual to severe dip hammered in the top over the years. Same as a carelessly worn stone, though on a coarse stone, careless wear through the length wouldn't matter. Only a dip in the width would.

 

[thetyreman]

you don't need a starrett reference stone t-trees,

dear jacob:

for flattening most things just use float glass, it's much cheaper, get some scrary sharp paper from workshop heaven and you'll be finished flattening most planes in under 1 hour, the microlapping film cuts much better than sandpaper and never curls around the edges.

 

[Jacob]

you don't need a starrett reference stone t-trees,

dear jacob:

for flattening most things just use float glass, it's much cheaper,

I would use it if I needed it (I've got stacks of the stuff) but my planer bed is more convenient

get some scrary sharp paper from workshop heaven and you'll be finished flattening most planes in under 1 hour, the microlapping film cuts much better than sandpaper and never curls around the edges.

I don't use sandpaper I use wet n dry, which is very fast if used wet, which is what it's designed for. 10 minutes or so depending on how bad or big. No 8 will take longer!
It's also very cheap and available everywhere. Klingspor Wet and Dry Sanding Sheets PS11A and PS11C
The corners don't curl if you use the paper backed version, it stick down nicely with white spirit or water. Have a look here:
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/plane-sole-lapping-the-easy-way.132823/just checked the Workshop heaven offering. It's astronomically expensive and the glass plate they offer is much too small. You need to sit two sheets on it if doing a long plane, especially if it's a bit concave - you are effectively just flattening the ends and can put the sheets further apart.

It's funny that wet n dry seems to have been forgotten - it used to be the nearest you could get to machine finishing in a home workshop. I first used it on the cylinder head of a BSA Bantam about 60 years ago, replacing the gasket etc.

 

[Ttrees]

you don't need a starrett reference stone t-trees,

Well at least we agree on something Ben.

Technique and observation over fancy tooling any day.
Observation to start off with, and suitable technique will follow if honest about the
observational part.

After all who wants a plane of shame
I have no issue with embarrassment, as I'm not too clever and really should'a known better.
(I have three planes of shame from being ignorant)

I'm sure some might like to see some more horror shows?
I've got a few other things, and some were important!

How about a big lump missing out of my tablesaw pulley from tapping in what I thought
was a flat key, as I only checked it on both ends because I believed most of the gurus
talk about lapping, I have yet to forgive myself for that one.

I have some more stuff which I've likely documented also.
The awl is pointing at a hair line fracture, which can happen on an already thin plane.
I don't have pics of the two others, those woulda been worth documentation.

Suppose for the skeptical they could just blame my lap or whatever, unless
they get something accurate and prove this to themselves...
Or just prove it with the passage of time doing various things on something just quite flat
instead.
That might never happen if one has grinders of various kinds and uses them to hollow out the centre, like this gib for instance
(looks a bit yucky as it was the only 5mm plate offcut which was used for drying damp rods)

Couldn't use the grinder for the smaller parts, so they had to be scraped with the chainsaw file.
(I'm not suggesting one grinds their plane, not even with a worn flap disc, as it's likely still way too aggressive and concentrated compared to lapping)
Scraping like Bill Carters method I don't think I'd try again either,
I needed to do this after making my no.8 quite convex, more than a few sheets of paper.
It took an age lapping this correctly to get it somewhat tolerable.
Would have been an easy job to just lap it correctly in the first place, and the plane is only at a state which is tolerable enough to use now, yet with some L-N "style" bias, as I respect the edges so I can actually end up where I want to.

Back to lapping planes though, if one focuses on the high spots,
then it will infact take less time and abrasive than working the whole surface,
That's a waste of time, but significantly more importantly, the work itself.

All the best

Tom

 

[Jacob]

....

Technique and observation over fancy tooling any day.
Observation to start off with, and suitable technique will follow if honest about the
observational part.

Getting there! You check for straightness, flatness etc by "looking" at the thing.

.....
The awl is pointing at a hair line fracture, which can happen on an already thin plane.
I don't have pics of the two others, those woulda been worth documentation.

I've never seen such a wreck of a plane I think you have come by something out of the ordinary, possibly wrecked by an OCDC modern sharpener?

View attachment 139078



.... some L-N "style" bias, as I respect the edges

Weird jargon with no meaning.

View attachment 139080

Back to lapping planes though, if one focuses on the high spots,
then it will infact take less time and abrasive than working the whole surface,

It's impossible to "work the whole surface" of a non-flat plane sole by rubbing it on a flat abrasive. It will only hit the high points, as long as you don't rock it about and add more to any curvature.

 

[jcassidy]

Evening all

Bought a plane from a car boot at the weekend for a tenner because I felt a lot of the rust etc was superficial and I would learn a bit about planes generally by having a go tidying it up.

I've got a new Quangsheng(sp?) No.5 Jack Plane, and a Bailey No. 6 off ebay as well as a couple of small apron planes so I'll not be reliant on this, but want to make a good go of tidying it up. With that in mind, does anyone have any suggestions for where to start with tutorials on plane restoration? I found this on youtube: Hand Plane Restoration.

Also, are those nicks in the iron salvagable? I've had a cursory glance at iron options and there seems to be various different degrees of iron - how am I to know which is suitable for this tool?

Thanks

Getting back to topic...

I love fixing up old planes. The only area that's really problematic is if the leading edge of the chipbreaker doesn't mate rightly with the iron, cos then you get chippings jammed in under there. I've one in particular that I've never managed to get right!

I then use them rough; as scrub planes, or when I'm working with dodgy reclaimed wood where I don't want to ding a nice plane.

As for the damaged edge, just work away on the rough side of an oilstone. Diamond plates are great, if you have one. You will use up more in sandpaper than you paid for the plane!