'Este' Plane Restoration - 50mm Iron

[Jacob]

Looks very like an SV or Esvee I bought years ago. Cheapo Indian garbage. The blade was OK though and yours is too - just needs sharpening.
Main thing is to get all the bits working and oiled.
De-rust the sole on a sheet of paper backed wet n dry on a flat, well wetted surface, glass, formica etc. I use a machine bed. Keep paper well wetted down with white spirit or water if it won't harm whats underneath
Just do it enough so it won't snatch on the timber, you don't need a shiny polish or to remove all traces of rust!
Don't get carried away it may not take much to get it to cut.
Most of the "famous" experts can be ignored - try to do only as much as necessary. Don't read anything, don't use feeler gauges!
Should take half an hour or so.

 

[D_W]

'destroying' the plane? where are your books and videos t-trees, time to get to work, also cosman isn't to be trusted, he just copies what charlesworth said and alan peters but isn't in the same league as either of them, you won't destroy a plane by filing the edges of it, the most important part is that the sole is flat, hopefully we can all agree on that.

filing or sanding the edges of a plane is fine, either way. Filing finds the burrs more easily - too much of it isn't advisable if it leads to riding over shavings, but most people probably won't do that.

The overall aim is to get something comfortable with hands that won't ding into a little burr easily and leave lines on work.

For anyone who is good with planes, a jointer and smoother both being flat will result in better work and less time getting to it. Getting agreement on that is not that easy because there aren't many people doing much with planes. It becomes instantly apparent with some volume of work happening "in a row" instead of just intermittently, though.

 

[Ttrees]

'destroying' the plane? where are your books and videos t-trees, time to get to work lol also cosman isn't to be trusted, he just copies what charlesworth said and alan peters but isn't in the same league as either of them, you won't destroy a plane by filing the edges of it, the most important part is that the sole is flat, hopefully we can all agree on that.

I actually made a video on the subject Ben, very boring it is, but whatta ya expect from a plane sole flattening video, lol.

I'll happily talk about Charlesworth's videos regarding flatness, and how to get there.
Since he was the person who thought me the importance of the edges.
Page one on how to get something flat, be it wood, metal or any other material.

If you don't respect the edges, you are fooling yourself.
All the best.

Tom

 

[Jacob]

....

If you don't respect the edges, you are fooling yourself.
.....

or "sharpen it" in other words?
Watch out for "experts" and OCDC sufferers!

 

[Ttrees]

Enjoying yourself trying to confuse the newcomers Jacob?

Anyway, back to reality, physics,toolmaking call it whatye want.
Seems ye still are in doubt, and I need make a silly video to prove what I'm sayin!
Trouble is I don't have the Starrett surface plateTM to prove it like Rob.

How about testing for yourself sometime, rather than saying otherwise,
although I can see why one wouldn't want to find out that what they might have thought flat was indeed not.
(not saying that one's planes or whatever is ruined)
Just saying Sellers and the third coast craftsman videos aren't going to help someone who might not have a plane machined to LN specs (hollow bias to ensure flatness)

For those who wish to make something flat, a look at my last lapping efforts demonstrates the importance of the edges,and maybe ask yourself why this is done.

Maybe one might wonder why anyone would suggest removing the reference
i.e edges/perimeter call it what you want.
Seems I'm one of the only ones who gives a poo, whether the "cheapo" plane might become a
serviceable tool, what can be used for fine work i.e smoothing and all that.

What I mean by that is not being able to slide a ruler under toe and heel, like what Sellers would have folks planes, as it's obvious he either doesn't care or is just too ignorant to check.
Not surprising as it's not in his interest to help folks anyway, and to keep the audience stupid instead.

Charlesworth's info is out there if you look.
David was honest and skilled, which is a good mix compared to the carp on the telly.

 

[Jacob]

Paper backed Wet n dry is undoubtedly the best way to go as it is easiest to use, cuts fast, sticks itself down well if wet and is cheapest. It was designed for this sort of job. Re-usable. Best to let it dry and store it between boards to keep it flat.
Your flat surface needs to be long enough for two sheets end to end if you want to clean up a long plane like a 6.
You don't need any expensive kit or materials at all, just a flat plate. A thick piece of MFC or formica faced ply will do, or a sheet of modern glass on a board (old glass may not be flat). I use my planer bed.
You can see where the high points on the sole are after a few rubs and decide how far you need to go. No need for any precision verification, "surface plates" etc. it's pretty obvious.

 

[Sideways]

I wonder if anyone in the world EVER checked a plane sole with a feeler gauge before Lie Nielsen made a selling point out of a flat ground sole and promptly got a load of returns from people who put a good straight edge up to them and saw daylight through the gap ?

Any gap big enough for a feeler gauge lets through lots of light. Effectively LN had raised customer expectations too high and are actively managing them down with that piece on their website about measuring sole flatness.

 

[Jacob]

I wonder if anyone in the world EVER checked a plane sole with a feeler gauge before Lie Nielsen made a selling point out of a flat ground sole and promptly got a load of returns from people who put a good straight edge up to them and saw daylight through the gap ?

I think they tried to pass it off as "hollow bias to ensure flatness".

Any gap big enough for a feeler gauge lets through lots of light. Effectively LN had raised customer expectations too high and are actively managing them down with that piece on their website about measuring sole flatness.

Well exactly. Feeler gauge can only check the edges anyway and tell you nothing.
You don't need to measure anything, you can see where the high spots are after a bit of abrasion.

 

[Ttrees]

Some folk even suggest fettling a LN tool, and not just a shoulder plane.
I'd like to see a demonstration on why, as Rob seems to get by without doing anything,
to those ductile iron copies.

 

[Ttrees]

I think they tried to pass it off as "hollow bias to ensure flatness".

Well exactly. Feeler gauge can only check the edges anyway and tell you nothing.
You don't need to measure anything, you can see where the high spots are after a bit of abrasion.

You can see more than the edges, if you check like Cosman's video...
Should you have read those Charlesworth books you sold, you would know this.

Maybe I need jog your memory,
i.e "I can do nothing with a bump"
referring to straight edges, the principal is identical.
I.e a flat surface cannot be convex.

Have a nice day.
Tom

 

[Jacob]

You can see more than the edges, if you check like Cosman's video...
Should you have read those Charlesworth books you sold, you would know this.

I did read them. I decided there were more practical ways of doing these things.
Can't be bothered to watch Cosman videos they are over long and I get turned off as soon as he says "Welcome to my Shaarp". 5 minutes should be enough!

 

[Jacob]

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/plane-sole-lapping-the-easy-way.132823/

 

[Ttrees]

No other way than to do it the right way on certain planes, like thin ones, warped ones,
incorrectly lapped ones, and ones which have a movable shoe like a low angle block and so on.
This means targeted removal of high areas, without abrading toe and heel.

Impossible to achieve solely on an abrasive larger than the plane, unless bias is in the same state of affairs as LN, and in that case it's only a polishing job for a few seconds.

I'm talking about lapping something "out"
i.e slide a ruler underneath.

 

[Ttrees]

Easier to fool people than convince them they've been fooled.
This is where the Cosman video has merit, and photo is there so you cannot claim ignorance.

Easily checked on something flat.
I could say this is square, but it ain't.

I have no shame in mentioning I done the same to my no.8, and it took a long time to fix the errors as I was convinced it was the way to go about lapping.
Silly me, never again after learning that lesson.

 

[thetyreman]

jacob have you tried scary sharp system? the 3m microlapping paper is amazing stuff, you'll never go back to sandpaper again and it lasts about 6 months.

 

[Jacob]

jacob have you tried scary sharp system? the 3m microlapping paper is amazing stuff, you'll never go back to sandpaper again and it lasts about 6 months.

I sharpen on oil stones. Once you discover how quick easy it is you'll never go back...etc
Wet n dry is silicon carbide and I just use it for metal work.

 

[Adam W.]

How do you keep them flat ?

 

[Jacob]

How do you keep them flat ?

I don't. All this flatness is just for modern sharpening obsessives!
I try to spread the wear a bit, to & fro, skewed, figure of 8 squiggle etc.
Anyway hollow stones are ideal for cambered blades
I did flatten one once but couldn't see the point.
I tried modern sharpening madness too but was very relieved to give it up and get back to quick and easy ways! Cheaper too - a bit of oil and stones which last for life.

 

[D_W]

Some folk even suggest fettling a LN tool, and not just a shoulder plane.
I'd like to see a demonstration on why, as Rob seems to get by without doing anything,
to those ductile iron copies.

I had a LN 62 that was hollow exactly to LN's spec. I demonstrated that it resulted in difficulty planing a board that was also flat, and then flattened it. If it had been out of flat the opposite direction, it would've been fine.

Instead of hiding the correction, when I resold it, I touted the correction and someone in France bought it for $125 more than the price of new, and when he received it, he glowed about how precisely it would plane.

Rob doesn't have much incentive to talk about flattening the sole of planes that he's selling, but they may be closer to flat. Toolmakers don't really use the tools that they make, at least not in the context of work, and few do much of a volume of work now, anyway, unless it's the crude kind of power tool support work that jakob talks about. In that case, it doesn't matter.

I had somewhere around 10 LN planes. 8 of them needed nothing and had no noticeable problems in use. two of them were hollow at their spec - i sold the first one disclosing the problem - it was an 8, and even that one was difficult to deal with match planing boards.

Of all of the old vintage planes that I've ever gotten, which is a huge number, any that were significantly worn but not abused never had a hollow sole, all were convex instead or close to dead flat. that includes wooden planes. I had one stanley 7 that was about 1/100th of an inch hollow in the middle and it was sharpened a couple of times and basically unused. It was a plane from right around WWII or slightly before, and it's possible that it didn't get used because it was already an outdated tool.

 

[D_W]

I wonder if anyone in the world EVER checked a plane sole with a feeler gauge before Lie Nielsen made a selling point out of a flat ground sole and promptly got a load of returns from people who put a good straight edge up to them and saw daylight through the gap ?

Any gap big enough for a feeler gauge lets through lots of light. Effectively LN had raised customer expectations too high and are actively managing them down with that piece on their website about measuring sole flatness.

i doubt anyone did that. i would imagine if they had a plane that was problematic match planing boards (a couple of thousandths hollow and it becomes almost impossible to do accurately, unless big glue gaps are OK on the ends) they addressed the problem without having a clue how many thousandths it was or wasn't.

either that or just found a plane that was flatter. Anyone doing coarse work wouldn't notice it in the first place, though. Wooden planes would have had their soles cleaned and setup by the cabinetmaker before that, probably by scraping and planing.

The internet gave the average person quick access to seeing that they could get imported feelers and a starrett straight edge. David Charlesworth talked long ago about a clifton (not sure if he disclosed it as clifton, but later confirmed) that was 7 thousandths hollow in its length and completely unusable.

it's true that you can lean on a plane and flex the sole. It's also true that you can't do much about the sole being biased as the plane is entering and exiting a board, and it will plane the ends off of a board no matter how hard you lean on it while it travels down the middle. BTDT.

I doubt cabinetmakers worked with swayed stones 200 years ago, but I think the three stone method is a modern thing. I think anyone with some skill can take emery and two stones and correct both of them working lengths and diagonals, but a cabinetmaker would've been skilled enough after that to work over the ends of the stone when working off the burr on the back of a tool.

I'm sure that plenty of joiners swayed tools because they weren't doing very fine work - I have two that came from a long retired joiner in the UK. they're shaped in a way that they could be used to check the radius of garden tractor tires.

I guess this whole thing of fine work vs. not falls apart on forums when people who don't do fine work want to speak for those who do, and people who do fine work want to dictate overly rigid rules to those who don't do fine work.