English Workbench Build

[Jacob]

I'm sure it'll work out but if you do have to start again (again) there are better designs.

I know I shouldn't encourage you, but I am curious about what you see as better in the other design?

Assuming you are still refering to the Paul Sellers bench mentioned earlier, they are basically the same, aren't they - two leg assemblies, two aprons and a top. The main differences are optional (tool well, leg brace, thin top and bearers vs thick laminated top). Why do you see one as better than the other?

PS I am genuinely interested to know!

Those strange dovetailed housed half lap joints are very quirky. Can't see them having any purpose or being any better than a straightforward mortice and tenon. Or a straight lap joint without DTs.
Don't want to put you off though - I'm sure it'll come out fine.

 

[custard]

Well done Nabs!

Congratulations on your bench build, you're overcoming the inevitable set backs, avoiding the temptation to rush through the job, and generally doing a very fine job.

=D>

 

[nabs]

many thanks for the encouragement Custard

Jacob, if it is an consolation, RM says that half lap dovetails are common on old English benches - so even if they are strange/quirky at least they are trad. Here are some of them for you to enjoy!

the glue up and nailing was uneventful, although the front set are very slightly out of square and a gap appeared on the rear legs, neither of issues which were apparent during the trial fits (I did several!), so I guess I went wrong during the nailing. I only managed to miss the nail and bash the wood once during proceedings, which was not bad going I thought.

They seem very sturdy - no doubt thanks to those weird half-lap dovetails!

 

[nabs]

Those strange dovetailed housed half lap joints are very quirky. Can't see them having any purpose or being any better than a straightforward mortice and tenon. Or a straight lap joint without DTs.
Don't want to put you off though - I'm sure it'll come out fine.

given your line of work, I rather suspect you are well aware of the relative merits of these joints, but in case you were having a senior moment and need a reminder (don't worry, it happens to all of us!) here is a refresher on the dovetailed half laps (aka dovetail halvings, apparently). Even if it is old news to you, hopefully other beginners like me may find it interesting:

Thanks to AndyT who shared the link to this book in another unrelated post:
https://www.archive.org/stream/modernca ... 7/mode/1up

 

[Phil Pascoe]

To be fair to Jacob, he didn't so much say they were unknown to him or pointless just that they were overkill in this instance. I'd think he was right. It's not as if it's a huge timber framed barn or something. If a dovetail there was actually needed, the construction and design would be suspect - which it isn't.

 

[Jacob]

I meant its an odd joint to use like that, for this project.
It'll work but a wedged M&T would be better and probably easier. Or a straight housing joint without the tapers.
Tip; gluing up - flood both meeting surfaces all over with glue. You can't have too much (though you may waste a bit) but you can have too little.

 

[nabs]

ah I see - in that case, apologies for my sarky response!

Don't the dovetails help prevent the legs racking/pulling apart e.g when shoving the bench round your workshop?

thanks for the tip on gluing - as it happens I did notice that RM applied the glue to both surfaces, so I did the same - I wasn't really sure how much was needed so just tied to create a sort of fattish film.

The final two things I did over the weekend were to attach the top bearers and also to clean up my vice, which I bought last April. Once I removed all the crud, paint, dried oil etc and applied some lubricant it works very well and there does not seem to be any serious wear to the nut or screw.
A tip I got from this forum was to use teflon lube for this type of job as it forms a dry coating and does not attract shavings/dust/dirt as much as light oil or grease (apparently it is popular for bicycle chains for the same reason)

One reason for taking it apart, other than to clean it, was to see how practical it would be to reassemble it when the rear carriage was attached to the bench. The answer is that it would be awkward but not impossible.

The reason I'm interested - and apologies in advance to sticky-out vice fans - is I am thinking about mounting it flush to the apron, and I thought one way to do this was to mount the rear carriage (separated from the rest of the vice) on the inside of the bench (using coach screws to attach it to the top and apron) and then to create a slot in the apron so the screw and rails can be pushed through into the rear carriage

The downside is that you lose an inch or so from full extent the vice opens, but it does mean you can screw in all 4 bolts on the rear carriage to the bench top (if you face mount it then 2 of the holes are obscured by the apron) and this might be useful in my case as I will have a thin top (~1 1'2 '' after flattening) to receive the screws.

The alternative seems to be to create a recess in the apron to receive the rear metal jaw, which I am not sure has any particular advantage over the above (other than not having to dismantle the vice), does it?.

c.f Richard Arnold's bench for an example - Richard if you are reading, how did you do to fit yours?

 

[richarnold]

Hi, I fitted the vice in the same way as I always have. I cut out an aperture in the apron that the whole vice can fit through, then screw a board back over the top section that is flush with the apron ( this is obscured by the leather facing, but you can just see the outline.)
Just out of interest , here's a shot of the Victorian bench that inspired my own build.

 

[nabs]

thanks for the explanation, and also for the pic of the old bench leg (good to know I'm not alone!)

 

[bugbear]

many thanks for the encouragement Custard

Jacob, if it is an consolation, RM says that half lap dovetails are common on old English benches - so even if they are strange/quirky at least they are trad.

Half lap dovetails are very common in house/barn timber framing (which are not glued), less common in joinery/cabinet framing (which are glued); perhaps larger benches leant towards timber framing design practice.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

many thanks for the encouragement Custard

Jacob, if it is an consolation, RM says that half lap dovetails are common on old English benches - so even if they are strange/quirky at least they are trad.

Half lap dovetails are very common in house/barn timber framing (which are not glued), less common in joinery/cabinet framing (which are glued); perhaps larger benches leant towards timber framing design practice.

BugBear

Well yes.
Perhaps larger benches leant towards timber framing design practice when designed/made by timber frame practitioners. Joiners/ cabinet makers would go for the much superior mortice and tenon.

 

[bugbear]

many thanks for the encouragement Custard

Jacob, if it is an consolation, RM says that half lap dovetails are common on old English benches - so even if they are strange/quirky at least they are trad.

Half lap dovetails are very common in house/barn timber framing (which are not glued), less common in joinery/cabinet framing (which are glued); perhaps larger benches leant towards timber framing design practice.

BugBear

Well yes.
Perhaps larger benches leant towards timber framing design practice when designed/made by timber frame practitioners. Joiners/ cabinet makers would go for the much superior mortice and tenon.

I'm fairly sure timber framers use M&T where they find it to be superior; they're the market place for the wonderful old "boring machines" and the modern portable chain mortiser death machine.

BugBear

 

[nabs]

thanks all (and for the boring machine pic - never seen such a thing);

Assuming half lap dovetails are 'good enough' for a workbench (and at least one has held up for around 100 years - see the victorian bench in the earlier post) then I suppose the other factors in choosing them is the amount of time needed to make them and aesthetics.

As it happens I like how the dovetails look (and the unnecessary leg brace, with doubly unnecessary dovetail added to the top side of it, adds a further bit of glamour!), but I am afraid I have never done a mortice and tenon joint so can't compare the effort or difficulty involved.

Aprons!

I was reading thetyreman's workbench build thread and there is an interesting discussion on a the potential weakness of this type of design:

#p1102608

and a suggested improvement - via Paul Sellers - by the addition of wedges. To quote the man himself:
https://paulsellers.com/2012/06/making- ... kbench-11/

When I have made benches in the past, I found that even with glue and screws or bolts, shoving them across uneven floors carelessly or regularly can rack the joints, break the glue line and weaken the rigidity of the bench. Including the joint around the leg area is quick and simple with a handful of basic tools and eliminates this problem.

the context for this comment is in a discussion on his knock-down bench design, but the same logic would seem to to apply to a fixed bench (and indeed in the workbench build thread above, Custard recalls seeing similarly problems with - admittedly very well used - benches in the past).

My question is that, given the addition of wedges looks like it will add only a small amount of effort to the overall build, can anyone see a reason not to do it?

 

[Jacob]

Yes, spot on BB!
That DT half lap was often a joist to beam joint in floors with just one taper the other edge being straight through but the housing wide enough for folding wedges, keeping the thing tightly wedged in place.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If you think your bench will rack dragging it across the floor once in a blue moon, I suggest you don't start making chairs.

 

[AndyT]

There's an alternative solution, which is to fix your bench to the floor. This is what I have done, but my bench is nothing like as elegant as yours and doesn't even have proper joints, bar a few crude half laps.
Wedges look useful to me. The only downside would be if they are not needed, but if you look on the bench as a fun project to extend your experience, go for it.

 

[nabs]

..., I suggest you don't start making chairs.

not much chance of that (unless they can be made solely with half lap dovetails, as that is the only joint I know how to do!).

Andy has got the gist of this endeavour right - it is for fun and learning (and hopefully something useful will come out the other end) and on that basis it seems the wedges are a go-go!

 

[El Barto]

I was under the impression that Paul Sellers only added wedges because he planned on transporting the bench to shows/workshops etc so wanted to be able to dismantle it.

But like you said, adding them is pretty straightforward so why the hell not.

 

[sundaytrucker]

I like the look of the lapped dovetails and it was one of the reasons I wanted to build Maguire's English Workbench.

There is a guy on Instagram making an English workbench, he is a former student at Tom Fidgen's school in Canada and it looks pretty dman good. I think he has used dowels rather than nails.

https://www.instagram.com/filippoxt/

 

[nabs]

the instagram chap did a brilliant job - I wish I hadn't looked now