Engineering title e-petition

[Orion801]

May seem a bit random but I figured that woodworking was a fairly popular hobby with engineers (in my experience anyway). We had a link to this e-petition go round at work today and I've been trying to spread it around a bit as its something that's fairly important to me. I'd appreciate it if anyone has the time to take a look and, if they agree with it, add their name to the list.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/44889

P.S. I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting this, I did check the forum guidelines and couldn't see anything that seemed to prohibit it though.

 

[henton49er]

As a retired engineer I have signed the petition, even though I personally will not gain anything from doing so.

I spent a good proportion of my working life working abroad as a Chartered Civil Engineer (designing and building roads, bridges, ports, reservoirs etc in the main), . The majority of overseas engineers that I met are amazed that, in UK, anyone who wields a spanner or a screwdriver can call himself an engineer, without having any qualifications at all.

Most sensible countries now require a minimum of a Masters degree to enter a "proper" engineering profession, and several years post-graduate experience and the passing of relevant exams to become a qualified engineer. It is high time that the title was protected, as it is in the mainland of Europe (albeit with the dreadful title of Eur. Ing. - yes, it is often pronounced urine - for professional European Engineers).

 

[t8hants]

As part of the OED definition of an engineer is "Someone who maintains machines" then the petitions premise is wrong the person who maintains coffee machines or boilers is an "engineer" by English definition, and who the hell cares what foreigners want to call themselves. If however a certain class of engineer want to raise their perceived status to demonstrate their higher academic achievement perhaps they should consider awarding themselves a new title. Do we want to rename certain famous Corps to the Royal Mechanics or the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Fitters?

 

[Dibs-h]

Signed

 

[nanscombe]

They are Problems Solvers, Designers and Analysts full of ingenuity and creativity to solve the technical problems they face.

I can see where that wouldn't necessarily cover modern equipment where the solution, which is internally diagnosed, is to just swap standard parts out., but it didn't use to be that simple.

People had to be problem solvers to get things working again
You'd go to a job where the client may just say "It's stopped working".
You'd have to take the equipment apart, possibly analysing the symptoms with the aid of diagnostics tools.
Then using experience, ingenuity and possibly creativity (where there wasn't a readily available solution) to fix the problem.

However now you have such things as built in diagnostics that almost tell you what's wrong and which replacement part to order. That said there are probably plenty of older people who still have the experience of doing things the hard way.

Forty years ago my dad was a car mechanic. Given the lack of on board computers, diagnostic hardware and easily changeable parts maybe he should have been called an automotive engineer instead?

I can remember Fred Dibner talking about books written by academics. He said something along the lines of they could tell you what a series of rivets were called, and probably why they were needed, but they didn't necessarily know how to do the job unlike those people with the experience of actually doing the work.

 

[DTR]

Am I missing something? The aim of the petition is to draw a distinction between "real" engineers and fitters / technicians / etc, but it does not define what that distinction is?

 

[Sheffield Tony]

This argument has occupied the letters page of the IET magazine for as long as I have known, and seems to me a complete waste of time and energy.

The term "Scientist" is not protected either - consider the term "Christian scientist" - I would sooner be mistaken for a coffee machine repair man than that ! It is not the title that matters. The measure of a scientist - or engineer - are their qualifications, achievements and the esteem of their peers. We would do better to focus on that and stop worrying what vending machine repair men chose to call themselves.

[Mind you, when I lived in Coventry I noticed that the refuse carts had "City Engineers" painted on the side, which is perhaps straining it a tad.]

_____________________
Dr Sheffield Tony CEng MIET

 

[Cheshirechappie]

This whinge about 'status' has been banging about for as long as I've been in the engineering profession, and probably a lot longer. One point that those pushing the argument always seem to make is that higher status will result in higher pay, to which the answer is that if you want higher pay, get a better paid job.

In the end, the title doesn't matter much. You'll be judged as people find you, whether you're a fitter, welder, draughtsman, design engineer, engineering manager or whatever. By the way, don't dismiss fitters and welders - those are highly skilled trades, and should be respected as such. Anybody who has worked in design knows the difference between an experienced draughtsman and someone who just calls themself a draughtsman.

There is a point that the general public don't understand what a professional engineer does, but in a sense I rather like that. They do understand what politicians, journalists, lawyers and so on do, and they hold them in varying degrees of contempt (even doctors are not immune given the tribulations of the NHS these days). I quite like being able to get on with my contribution to human well-being whilst staying under the radar; life is more peaceful that way. If they don't understand what I do, who cares? I get paid, and have the advantage of an intellectually stimulating and rewarding job (office politics aside!). Who needs 'status'?

 

[speeder1987]

I have to agree as a newly qualified chemical engineer, surely the distinction is apparent to the people who it really matters.

If two people turned up for a job interview at an oil refinery and one was a chemical engineer and the other was a vending machine engineer, I know who I would put my money on getting through the technical interview!

What I find a little disappointing is the dilution of the professional status from other career paths. It used to be that accountancy and engineering had accreditation to make sure that a certain standard was maintained.

Now though I have a friend who graduated as a designer, 3 months later he is a charted designer! It takes normally 4 years for a chemical engineer and a huge amount of work to become chartered

 

[JakeS]

Now though I have a friend who graduated as a designer, 3 months later he is a charted designer! It takes normally 4 years for a chemical engineer and a huge amount of work to become chartered

It presumably takes different periods of time and also means different things in different professions.

I work as a software engineer (oo-er!) and I could have got my associate membership of the BCS - the chartered society for computer scientists (repeat oo-er!) - straight out of university, thanks to the particular degree I took; IIRC all I needed for full membership was something like two years' experience in the industry and a letter of referral from a working professional. That said, I've since given it up, since the only real [negligible] benefit I noticed was a few more letters after my name. Half the people in software engineering don't even really know what the BCS is; one guy I used to work with compared it to scientology because - to quote - "they make you pay money every year to belong to a special group"!



Regarding the 'engineer' debate, I personally think the horse has bolted. People use the term 'engineer' for all kinds of non-designing-and-making-physical-things roles, books have been written, name-plaques have been engraved, courses and certifications named and so on... far more productive, to my mind, would be to simply ensure that all professions which warrant one have a chartered society and professional certifications and all that - which largely has already been done. I suspect the reason that doctors and not scientists or engineers are protected is simply because the guy on the street wants to know that the chap he's seeing for his gout is properly qualified to help him... and the guy on the street doesn't come into contact with civil engineers or research scientists that often!

(I also very much doubt that such recognition would raise salaries - the jobs which require particular skills are already being picky about only hiring people with those skills, after all.)

 

[Dibs-h]

compared it to scientology because - to quote - "they make you pay money every year to belong to a special group"!

Now that's very good way of looking at things! :lol:

Dibs

 

[speeder1987]

Now though I have a friend who graduated as a designer, 3 months later he is a charted designer! It takes normally 4 years for a chemical engineer and a huge amount of work to become chartered

It presumably takes different periods of time and also means different things in different professions.

I work as a software engineer (oo-er!) and I could have got my associate membership of the BCS - the chartered society for computer scientists (repeat oo-er!) - straight out of university, thanks to the particular degree I took; IIRC all I needed for full membership was something like two years' experience in the industry and a letter of referral from a working professional. That said, I've since given it up, since the only real [negligible] benefit I noticed was a few more letters after my name. Half the people in software engineering don't even really know what the BCS is; one guy I used to work with compared it to scientology because - to quote - "they make you pay money every year to belong to a special group"!



Regarding the 'engineer' debate, I personally think the horse has bolted. People use the term 'engineer' for all kinds of non-designing-and-making-physical-things roles, books have been written, name-plaques have been engraved, courses and certifications named and so on... far more productive, to my mind, would be to simply ensure that all professions which warrant one have a chartered society and professional certifications and all that - which largely has already been done. I suspect the reason that doctors and not scientists or engineers are protected is simply because the guy on the street wants to know that the chap he's seeing for his gout is properly qualified to help him... and the guy on the street doesn't come into contact with civil engineers or research scientists that often!

(I also very much doubt that such recognition would raise salaries - the jobs which require particular skills are already being picky about only hiring people with those skills, after all.)

I agree I think the people who need to know about these chartered societies do, and already incorporate pay rises as necessary.

In chemical engineering certain companies incorporate chartership as part of their graduate recruitment process. And some companies if you don't get chartership after x years then they get rid of you, and you don't complete the graduate program!

John

 

[WandrinAndy]

... and, if they agree with it, add their name to the list.

Just adding my name to this thread as I disagree with it...... As if we don't have enough ridiculous legislation already!

Afraid I have never understood why some folk have any need to embellish their names with anything other than their given names? Surely the only important embellishments are those used by one's fellow humans and peers, and quite often these are simply unprintable!

"This will increase the reputation of .... and society's respect for.... Engineers" - IMO this is poppycock and the exact opposite will happen.

Thanks,
The Greatest, Most Honourable, Right Reverend, Infinitely Venerable, and most-of-all Utterly Irreverent, WandrinAndy ;-)

 

[Orion801]

A lot more people seem to be very passionately against this than I had anticipated. I have to say that there's a few points which I don't think have necessarily been put forward very well by the creator of the petition in his description.

For me, personally, it's not about status in a sense of wanting people to think qualified engineers are somehow "better" than technicians/engineers (whichever you prefer to call them) as I don't believe that to be true. Both types of job have their merits and require a very different skill set. I don't particularly care what people think of me as a person for the job I do. I do it because I enjoy it and it allows me to pay the bills, and that's enough for me.

I do think its important for people to be able to distinguish between the two though, as a huge number of people in this country don't seem to know what an engineer is or what they do. Far more people I spoke to, when they heard that I was studying engineering, seemed to think I would be able to fix their car for them than anything else (a point of view I probably don't do much to dispel seeing as I spend a lot of my free time taking motorbikes to bits ).

Currently (or at least last I heard) we have a shortage of engineers in this country, and I believe that if people in general had a better understanding of what an engineer does then it may help to attract more young people to consider it as a potential career path.

After reading all the comments on here though I wonder if there would be a better means to achieving this than that suggested in the petition...

 

[dickm]

From my perspective, the petition seems to be aiming at an impossible target. The petitioner seems to wants to change the use of the English language, so that the word engineer will be recognised by everyone as the type of skilled person who can probably put C. Eng after her/his name.
Sorry, but it just ain't possible. The view that engineer equals someone with a spanner is too deeply ingrained in English (stress English - my impression is it's less true up here in Scotland) to be changed by legislation. And how would it be policed - anyone who uses the word engineer incorrectly will be hauled up before the appropriate Chartered Institute?

On a related topic, my professional society has fairly recently achieved a Royal Charter. Since I'm retired, it doesn't really affect me, but the award of the charter does seem to have made the hierarchy of the profession more narrow-minded and less open to new ideas - more concerned with protecting the purity of the subject (and their own status?) than actually advancing the profession. It's something that seemed quite prevalent in some of the older Chartered Institutes too.

 

[nanscombe]

The view that engineer equals someone with a spanner is too deeply ingrained in English (stress English - my impression is it's less true up here in Scotland) to be changed by legislation.

I would agree with that.

If people see job descriptions like Civil Engineer, Structural Engineer, Electrial Engineer then they would think of someone specialised in a particular field.

However if something goes wrong people would just get an engineer in to fix it. Gone are the days of getting a "man" in.

 

[Dusty]

Well well well , wont repeat what others have said , but in my opinion it is tosh

My brother inlaw is a heating engineer !! qualified , he was not very academic but worked hard and studied for his qualification . My brother is a fully qualified mechanical engineer , not a fitter , my father inlaw owns an engineering firm . I regularly work alongside a very respected structural engineer .

My point is that they are all good at their jobs and I respect them but they dont walk around thinking they are better than the rest and dont make a point of their qualifications .

Get a grip , there are people dying of cancer , fuel and food prices soaring , and it the weather is so crappy that I cant do a pointing job ( I am a construction engineer :roll: builder ) I think we have more important things to worry about that signing such plain daft documents , and besides , even if it did get a zillion signatures , do you really think the government give a dam , they cant make revenue from doing it !!!!!!!!

Kind regards Sam

 

[steadyeddie]

Where I used to work a few years ago, a guy turned up to change the roller towel in the toilet. I asked him if he was going to re-fill the soap dispenser too, as it was empty. His reply was " You will have to call the office to send out the Soap Dispenser Engineer, I'm not qualified to do it." I just walked away, smiling to myself ! Could not believe my ears.

Dave

 

[gazza_0208]

Pleasure to sign this, little questionable about software engineers, after thirty years I only knew them to master two phrases.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

............which were?