Energy Saving

[baldkev]

D) most of us cannot afford them new and will wait for them to drip feel into the used market. Especially the more exciting ones.

The issue with this will be battery life. If it costs 10k for a new tesla battery ( i looked on google, no solid prices, but some claim it can be 22k dollars )
then who would bother risking it? The have ( apparently ) a 6 to 7 year life expectancy...... hopefully by the time 8 can afford an electric vehicle, that will have improved. But i would only buy new being as a large part of the value is tied in with the battery. I would love an electric van. I often work within a few miles of where i live and so could easily cope with an electric for work miles.

 

[baldkev]

Government need to incentivise business to drive change as fast as they dare.

The biggest issue being the incentive. Which costs money. So then its raise taxes even more which people will hate, especially if the rest of the world is dawdling....
Then there's the government, who are particularly susceptible to 'lobbying' and unless the incentives make those lobbying lots of money ( which wouldnt be fair ) then it would fail.
I actually think a lot of people are waiting for scientists to magically solve it

I also reflect on the acid rain problem that Europe ‘solved’. I remember as a kid the news stories and everyone knowing we had to act. I can’t help thinking that I’d the internet had existed at that time it would have slowed the process. Critical thought is very important, but I think the internet enables the amplification of any opinion especially negative ones.

A great point
The internet has made us all busier than ever. I tried contacting a couple of government departments about the u.n sdg goals that we 'championed' and got no reply at all. One of the 'goals' is life on land ( number 15) and we are supposed to be working to improve and restore our eco system, but it doesnt seem like theres anyone actually there to be doing any of it

 

[baldkev]

Then there's the government, who are particularly susceptible to 'lobbying

P.s i was trying to tread carefully so as not to ignite a political ( or sharpening ) argument.... and to be clear, i voted tory, so im not bashing for a point

 

[Droogs]

@baldkev going by the info that is available, unless they have been ragged stupid by constant 0 - 100% rapid charges every day, the batteries in most EVs will outlast the actual car.

 

[Fitzroy]

Science has already ‘magically’ solved it, nuclear, wind, solar, tidal, hydro etc. But we consume enormous amounts of energy and the infrastructure for any of these technologies will cost trillions of dollars/pounds to install. Someone has to pay for this, either through tax on individuals(us), company investments that cost shareholders (us), company price rises(us). In the end WE must pay today to protect the future. People hate paying for something they personally will not, or may not, benefit from.

 

[Droogs]

In answer to the question of "What is the most positive and greatest impact I can have about climate change?" It is really quite simple given most people lack the will to do something fundamental about their lifestyles themselves but all agree something needs to be done but wont do anything until forced to by law.

Vote in the Green Party. I even suggested to one of them that their next campaign slogan should be "We know you love your car but if you love your children too, vote Green"

 

[baldkev]

Science has already ‘magically’ solved it, nuclear, wind, solar, tidal, hydro etc

Hmmmm.... yeah but no but!
All of those things require factories and processes that take large amouts of energy to produce, then theres the recycling issues.... so i guess more specifically, the waiting game is more about science solving methane and re using carbon dioxide instead of trying to store it etc.... its mostly about reversing the things we pump into the atmosphere to effect a relatively quick halt in global warming ( as far as i understand it )

@baldkev going by the info that is available, unless they have been ragged stupid by constant 0 - 100% rapid charges every day, the batteries in most EVs will outlast the actual car.

From what I have read, the tesla batteries are expected to last between 100k and 150k depending on model. So if you do 15k a year......


A quick google shows the newest batteries they put in them are expected to drop to 70% capacity over 100k. Theres a tesla on electrek which has the highest known mileage for an electric car, with 400k on it. And $29k repairs. Which is what the car originally cost.

 

[baldkev]

This is interesting:
https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/
After 300k miles it had a new battery. The new pack has lost just 10% capacity after 100k miles....

 

[Fitzroy]

Hmmmm.... yeah but no but!
All of those things require factories and processes that take large amouts of energy to produce, then theres the recycling issues.... so i guess more specifically, the waiting game is more about science solving methane and re using carbon dioxide instead of trying to store it etc.... its mostly about reversing the things we pump into the atmosphere to effect a relatively quick halt in global warming ( as far as i understand it )



From what I have read, the tesla batteries are expected to last between 100k and 150k depending on model. So if you do 15k a year......


A quick google shows the newest batteries they put in them are expected to drop to 70% capacity over 100k. Theres a tesla on electrek which has the highest known mileage for an electric car, with 400k on it. And $29k repairs. Which is what the car originally cost.

You’re fighting thermodynamics unfortunately, CO2 is stable and results from oxidation, to ‘use’ CO2 is energy unfavourable so you’ll end up using lots of energy to sequester it. Natural processes like rock weathering that form part of the long carbon cycle take lots of energy still but over a long period. The second problem is the sheer volume of atmosphere you would need to process to scrub out the CO2, the energy to drive such a large process would be huge. They can be done scientifically but it comes back to clean energy to drive the processes, and to build the infrastructure initially.

I’ve been involved in crisis management for a while and I’m always amazed and what can be done in a short period of time when economics are removed. We could solve this problem easily in a short time period if we as a globe diverted all spend on defence into clean energy infrastructure, the world’s governments spent $2 trillion on this in 2020, 10yrs of that and you could build sufficient wind infrastructure to cover most global energy needs.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

We could solve this problem easily in a short time period if we as a globe diverted all spend on defence into clean energy infrastructure, the world’s governments spent $2 trillion on this in 2020, 10yrs of that and you could build sufficient wind infrastructure to cover most global energy needs.

This sums it up nicely - the problem can be fixed - it is just a question of what sacrifices need to be made to do so, and what the consequences are.

On a personal level most seem disinclined to sacrifice anything of consequence - so it is for government to force sacrifice - taxation, legslation, increased public spending etc.

For a government keen on the prospect of re-election, forcing sacrifice directly upon the electorate has its risks. So they consider sacrificing those things which impact indirectly, but are very much the prime responsibility of government.

This may include (for instance) defence, law and order, international aid and relations, support of the vulnerable and elderly etc. Most won't notice until its absence affects them directly. The truth is that day to day we care more about the refuse being collected than the threat of invasion or loss of influence on the world stage.

 

[Ozi]

I think we do change our behaviours....

Think how we all rushed out and brought diesel engine cars!!

If we all rushed out to buy electric cars then

A) there wouldn't be the infrastructure to support them,

B) the manufacturing emissions would actually increase.

C) The manufacturing capacity isn't there to make them

D) most of us cannot afford them new and will wait for them to drip feel into the used market. Especially the more exciting ones.

E) They are not yet suitable for some applications - motorhomes, towing duties etc.

Cheers James

Good points and all being worked on. I assume you saw the report issued by Volvo (a well known Chinese Company) comparing the life cycle emissions of one of their electric vehicles with it's IC version. The basic conclusion for those who didn't was that if the electricity used to charge it is produced with the current European average emissions it breaks even in comparison to the IC at 70,000 km

@baldkev going by the info that is available, unless they have been ragged stupid by constant 0 - 100% rapid charges every day, the batteries in most EVs will outlast the actual car.

True and the resistance to rapid charging damage is improving, it's no different to IC vehicles if you abuse a machine it deteriorates, if you know your clients are going to abuse it you make it stronger. The problem reduces for smaller cheaper vehicles, they tend to be used for shorter journeys. If commuting 20 miles each way and doing a bit of local shopping etc. is your use then slow charge at home on cheap rate electricity, which hopefully is coming from a cleaner source and the battery can be repurposed when the car is beyond repair, you may loose top end performance but most of us drive cars capable of 110mph plus loose 20% of that and personally I'd never know. If you have 200 miles range and loose a bit of that as well for most of the journeys we make again no issue.

 

[Ozi]

I have posted this vehicle before, they now make a van version. It's not quite there yet but get the speed up to 50 mph and let me change the battery in the same way as cordless mower. One person too and from work in the dry without dragging 4 empty seats and a tonne of steal around to no good purpose.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news...of-just-47-miles/ar-AAQ15jT?ocid=winp1taskbar

 

[Ozi]

Just thought I'd post this, it's from MyGridGB. Not often you see the carbon intensity drop below 100 but it does happen (I know it's a Sunday but it's still good to see).

 

[Fitzroy]

Good points and all being worked on. I assume you saw the report issued by Volvo (a well known Chinese Company) comparing the life cycle emissions of one of their electric vehicles with it's IC version. The basic conclusion for those who didn't was that if the electricity used to charge it is produced with the current European average emissions it breaks even in comparison to the IC at 70,000 km

True and the resistance to rapid charging damage is improving, it's no different to IC vehicles if you abuse a machine it deteriorates, if you know your clients are going to abuse it you make it stronger. The problem reduces for smaller cheaper vehicles, they tend to be used for shorter journeys. If commuting 20 miles each way and doing a bit of local shopping etc. is your use then slow charge at home on cheap rate electricity, which hopefully is coming from a cleaner source and the battery can be repurposed when the car is beyond repair, you may loose top end performance but most of us drive cars capable of 110mph plus loose 20% of that and personally I'd never know. If you have 200 miles range and loose a bit of that as well for most of the journeys we make again no issue.

I was reading an analysis of embodied carbon breakeven distance for EVs the other day. 70k is pessimistic compared to those analysis, of course I can’t find the analysis now to link, but honest! I think more important is in the input assumptions on what is the emissions of the energy used to manufacture the batteries and the ongoing charging, once moved to EV any greening in electricity generation is instantly captured through the vehicle stock.

 

[Misterdog]

Though when there is insufficient wind.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58469238
We will need fossil fuel or nuclear back up for decades. Unless we are prepared to tolerate power cuts.
Electricity is currently 5 times the cost of gas per Kwh, only when the price of electricity drops will people be able to afford air source heat pumps to heat their homes. (ignoring the installation/running costs including all new bigger radiators)
You would have to tear my 1865 house apart to fit such.

 

[Misterdog]

The biggest irony of the year so far.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-58626935

 

[Blackswanwood]

The electric vehicle question is interesting.

I think a major factor that will accelerate the move over the next couple of years will be as the large car fleets make the change.

I also think the concept of car ownership will change. Driverless cars are the real game changer.

 

[baldkev]

if we as a globe diverted all spend on defence into clean energy infrastructure, the world’s governments spent $2 trillion on this in 2020, 10yrs of that and you could build sufficient wind infrastructure to cover most global energy needs.

How much has the world spent on coronavirus?
In feb 2021, forbes put it at 24 trillion ( google search )

 

[Ozi]

I was reading an analysis of embodied carbon breakeven distance for EVs the other day. 70k is pessimistic compared to those analysis, of course I can’t find the analysis now to link, but honest! I think more important is in the input assumptions on what is the emissions of the energy used to manufacture the batteries and the ongoing charging, once moved to EV any greening in electricity generation is instantly captured through the vehicle stock.

That was their point, Europe in general is not making the improvements in generation that need to be. The biggest offenders are Poland and Germany, we are one of the better examples with France doing very well due to nuclear.

 

[Skydivermel]

I've been in the construction industry for 30 years as a mechanical engineer designing large heating and ventilation systems. On the global warming/carbon neutral issue there are a couple points that baffle me. 1st one is Govt pushing heat pumps. 70% of our housing stock is pre 1950 (cold and draughty) Gov is promoting heat pumps with an incentive of £5K if you choose to install one, or RHI at circa 21p/kWh. The heat pump equipment cost for an average 3 bed semi is around £5-7K so the £5k Gov grant might just about cover the eqpt cost. The RHI is only payable for 7 years at a max of 20K kWh PA. It's unlikely that an air source heat pump for a 3bed semi will generate 20K kWh. Even if it did your maximum payment over the 7 years would be just over £9K. However you cant have both the Gov grant and the RHI. It's either £5K or the RHI.

On top of the equipment costs is the need to uprate the plumbing system. It's highly likely you'll have to increase the pipe sizing to 22mm on the primary side and you will have to increase the radiators to just about double their current size to accommodate the low flow temperature's. This adds to the equipment costs especially on the radiator sizes. Also add to that the plumbers labour to upgrade the plumbing system, and the electricians labour costs to wire it all in. It's around £350 a day for a plumber & mate and sparks around £250 day. 3-4 days for the plumbers and a day for the sparks, so labour costs to install will be about £1,650 + materials circa £150. Upgrading the radiators to to accommodate the lower water temperatures will have to be done, typically the mean water temperature from an ASHP is 50deg C. As an example, Delta T, or ∆T, refers to the difference in temperature between the water circulating in the central heating system and that of the ambient temperature. If the ambient temperature is 20ºC and the mean water temperature inside the radiators is 70ºC, the ∆T value is 70 - 20 = 50º. The heat output of a radiator is proportional to the temperature of the water inside it. The hotter the water inside the radiator, the greater the heat output of the radiator. So, with a ∆T of 50º, the radiator might give off 1000 Watts (3400 BTUs), but reduce the temperature of the water inside so that the ∆T is 30º and the same radiator gives just 510 Watts (1700 BTUs).

Now you could upgrade your radiators to cast iron which work more efficiently with lower water temperatures but these can be prohibitively expensive. Don't forget you'll also need to increase your insulation and draught proofing also. So to sum up point 1 ASHP's (and having done an exercise for a client). A typical 3 bed semi ASHP install will cost circa £11 - 12K. Once installed the running costs are much more than a gas boiler. with electricity be circa 15p kWh (and rising) and gas being circa 4p kWh (and rising). So to upgrade it's going to cost you. Not everyone can afford to shell out £12k and be drip fed back £9K over a period of 7 years. Only people lucky enough to have that sort of money laying around will benefit whilst those on the energy breadline will suffer.

Point 2. Can someone please tell my why every new build house in the UK isn't built with solar PV panels on the roof, and/or why every industrial building on every industrial estate in the UK doesn't have solar PV installed on them?