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clogs

just can't decide
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Vamos, Crete, GREECE.......
just read about the Morroco - UK High voltage cable delivering "GREEN elec".....

My question ....I was told long ago that to transmit elec u need AC, as over distance there is little volt drop compared with DC which looses a lot.....
Obviously people with better qualifications than me have decide that the AC devolped in Morroco will be converted to High Power DC current ..
Then sent to us who will return it to AC on arrival....
can somebody explain please.....just very interested.....
No axe to grind whatso ever......just need info.....
 
Not aware of this story, or its specific veracity but:
Drop in the cable can be minimised by transmission at high voltage /low current. Thus reducing the effect of resistive loss. Its easier to raise voltage at the input end and reduce it at the output end if dealing with ac as it only needs simple transformers. But there's nothing inherent in ac that reduces the loss.
 
It would be interesting to know where you are. The reason for converting AC (as produced in a power station by rotating generators) to DC is to transfer power from one AC grid to another which is not otherwise connected. There is a large DC cable between England and France. It needs to be DC because The UK grid is not synchronised to the European Grid. The link helps with management of the 2 systems; when there is a surplus of supply in the UK electricity can be exported to Europe and visa-versa
Brian
 
just read about the Morroco - UK High voltage cable delivering "GREEN elec".....

My question ....I was told long ago that to transmit elec u need AC, as over distance there is little volt drop compared with DC which looses a lot.....
Obviously people with better qualifications than me have decide that the AC devolped in Morroco will be converted to High Power DC current ..
Then sent to us who will return it to AC on arrival....
can somebody explain please.....just very interested.....
No axe to grind whatso ever......just need info.....
AC can be stepped up and down in voltage easily, with a simple transformer. High voltage means less current, and less current means less loss.

However, AC has its disadvantages too. A very long transmission line acts as a sort of damper and you get losses as a result. AC likes to travel in the outer circumference of the wire, so the core of the wire is underused (skin effect). An underground/undersea AC cable also suffers from offsetting of the current and voltage waveform, resulting in more current being drawn for a given amount of power transferred.

Modern technology has made stepping DC voltage up and down feasible now, and since you don’t get the damping effect of AC, it is coming to the fore for long distance power transmission.
 
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The places where electricity is generated and where most of it is consumed are often far apart, even in different countries.
I would say that the growth of wind power, tidal, solar, even ne nuclear stations all increase the distance that we need to transmit power.
To minimise losses due to heating in the cable (Power = I2R or Current squared x Resistance), it's better to reduce the current by transmitting at high voltage.
A number of long distance Ultra High Voltage electricity transmission systems have been built around the world. China has a few as you see in this Wiki article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-voltage_electricity_transmission_in_China
The AC vs DC argument is separate from the Ultra High Voltage (UHV) argument.

One of AC's great advantages is that it allows the use of relatively simple transformers to step voltages up and down around the grid. This allows use of higher voltages to minimise currents and losses around the grid and low voltages like 415v 3 phase and 240v single phase for safety at point of use. Because AC voltage oscillates and passes through zero 100x each second, it is easier to break a live circuit without arcing and like for like, switches are usually rated for bigger AC currents than DC currents.

However, like for like, there is more energy loss in the cables with AC transmission vs DC
https://www.betaengineering.com/news/hvdc-when-and-how-it-is-used-in-transmission
On a dedicated long distance UHV transmission link, the balance of trade offs between loss in the cables and added complexity at the ends with high voltage DC can tilt in favor of using DC.
 
So the only real reason we all have AC at home is none of us like electrifried elephant?

And we could cover the sahara with solar panels and have free power for life?
 
As a side note...

I'm not going to directly link it, as it's quite foul, but the film footage exists of the 1903 electrocution attributed, incorrectly, to the war of currents.

It's good that we work on science now, rather than just empty claims by showmen and politicians.
 
So the only real reason we all have AC at home is none of us like electrifried elephant?

And we could cover the sahara with solar panels and have free power for life?
The film ‘current wars’ is worth a watch. Not very technical, but tells the story of Edison’s war with Tesla.

I took the wife to see it in the cinema - there were only about 5 or 6 others there, who all looked like they might be electricians, dragging similarly bored-looking spouses.
 
YoJeval
I actully live on the island of Crete....
I was having a coffee and the UK -Morroco elec link came up....
so it wont effect me at all....
I'm just interested in why they decided UHVDC.....
I'm quite happy with the answers give above.......
thanks one and all.....
 
@clogs
I hadn't heard of this link so I just googled it. Here is a FT report of a few days ago with some interesting comments attached. So the proposal is to build a vast solar panel farm which will produce as much as Sizewell C. As the farm will produce DC there will be no need for conversion to AC at that end although there may be a need for storage to smooth out day/night production cycles.
Brian
 
From today's Telegraph -


After 5,880 days of work at sea, the 450-mile long electricity cable connecting Blyth, Northumberland, with Kvilldal, near Stavanger in Norway, starts life on Friday.
The €1.6bn North Sea link draws power from Norway’s hydropower electricity system to provide power for up to 1.4m British homes.
It is the fifth cable linking Britain’s power market with neighbours and will be able to both import and export power, helping balance out intermittent supplies from wind turbines.
 
From today's Telegraph -


After 5,880 days of work at sea, the 450-mile long electricity cable connecting Blyth, Northumberland, with Kvilldal, near Stavanger in Norway, starts life on Friday.
The €1.6bn North Sea link draws power from Norway’s hydropower electricity system to provide power for up to 1.4m British homes.
It is the fifth cable linking Britain’s power market with neighbours and will be able to both import and export power, helping balance out intermittent supplies from wind turbines.
Interesting that they chose pretty much the most northerly point in England, rather than a closer landfall via the north of Scotland. Aberdeen would have the necessary infrastructure. I wonder why. Something to do with independence referendums perhaps?
 
Probably more to do with the intended market is England as Scotland usually has an excess of generation capacity and basically supplies half of the very north of England. So a link to Aberdeen would have been to too intermittent a market.
 
The reason we use high voltage Ac for transmission is because you can only generate Ac and in the early days there was not the electronic capability to use Dc which is more efficient, no losses due to parasitic impedances that lead to losses and phase shifts between voltage and current. It is these shifts that cause issues when connecting Ac supplys because you have to match the phases. The Chinese use a 3 Giga watt Dc system running at + 500 Kv to - 500Kv from the three Gorges plant to near Shanghi. There is also the Eastern link which is a Dc line through the Irish sea from Scotland to the Uk. One day Dc will take over from Ac at least for the national grid running at 400Kv.
 
Probably more to do with the intended market is England as Scotland usually has an excess of generation capacity and basically supplies half of the very north of England. So a link to Aberdeen would have been to too intermittent a market.
Absolutely, two notable things I saw in Scotland this summer were 1) lots of wind turbines being put up; 2) lots of oil rigs being decomissioned. The vast majority of energy consumption happens south of the border.
 
Caveat: I am not a power engineer, so the following comments are deliberately approximations - there are subtle effects which I carefully ignore!

Couple of points worth mentioning. The skin effect is dependant on a number of factors, including the line frequency.

At DC, there is no skin effect and there is uniform current carrying capability across the whole conductor.

At 50Hz, skin depth is about 9mm, i.e. the current travels in the outer 9mm of the conductor, so if your conductor is less than 18mm in diameter, this doesn't matter. However, for grid power distribution, you need very high currents, even at 400kV plus you need the physical strength of a larger cable to handle the spans between pylons, so cables are larger than 18mm o.d. and thus skin effect becomes an issue for long high power transmission lines. Special cables are used where there is an outer sheath of low resistivity material, e.g. copper, and an inner core which is strong, e.g. made of steel.

HVDC is very efficient, not just because you can link non-phase-locked grids, but because there is very little power loss in the cables due to corona discharge losses. You do have AC/DC -> DC/AC conversion losses at each end of the cable, but modern solid-state systems MMC converters are very efficient so there is often an overall benefit to using HVDC over HVAC in many circumstances.

It's because of I2R losses, which are the same for AC & DC, that we use high voltages to reduce the current necessary to deliver a given amount of power - P=IV, so for a given P, if you dramatically increase V, the required I (current) drops proportionally. As resistive power loss is proportional to the SQUARE of I and R (the resistance of the line) is fixed, reducing I is a GOOD THING.

Corona losses are calculated using Peek's Formulae - I'm approximating here as the formulae is very specific and complex. With a typical AC grid system, you lose between around 3.5kW/km (good weather) and 8.4kW/km (stormy weather) per phase . The UK grid has around 25,000km of cables in total (approximate sum of all high voltage AC distribution). Assuming all this is single phase (it's not - most of it is 3 phase), on a dry day roughly 87.5MW is being wasted and on a stormy day around 210MW is lost PER PHASE. So the total is more like 3 times that and then times by 24 to get to daily power loss in kWh or MWh as appropriate. Plus that excludes traditional I2R (I squared R) power losses, i.e. the power lost due to the resistance of the cables.

That's a LOT of lost power, but it's still the easiest way to distribute lots of power as AC allows the use of simple transformers to step up and down.

There are other issues too with HVAC and HVDC that I conveniently ignore here - HVAC corona can effect the quality of the underlying AC, introducing amongst other things, noise (both RF and on the line) and harmonics. HVDC conversion produces a stepped approximation to a true sine wave and thus can be rich in harmonics which have to be removed before onward transmission.

It was a fire at the Sellindge end of the cross-channel HVDC cable's DC/AC converter that caused a big outage and will reduce cross-channel capacity by around 50% for many months.
 
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At least we don't have a significant problem with what are euphemistically termed "non-technical losses":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_theft
The fire at Sellindge is particularly unhelpful at the moment with gas prices spiking, but also because the power from France is nuclear-generated "base load" power and low-carbon (at least at the point of use). Good to see the wind blowing again today - at times today the UK grid has been using only about 16% gas (with 45% wind and 14-15% solar).
 

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