Electric vehicles

[John Brown]

A lot of people keep talking about hydrogen, so why do you think it's not being pursued?

 

[sploo]

Just needs a new tank. The vehicles, the drivers and the infrastructure is already in place

I'm... really not sure that's entirely true. Even ignoring the differences in transport and storage of liquid hydrogen vs gasoline, there are major differences in the way engines burn hydrogen, including energy density issues. I'm assuming we're not talking about fuel cells, as that's yet another (different) kettle of fish.

 

[Sideways]

It's old news now but the big thing to me is how Tesla - in the process of building their EV brand - has adopted disruptive technologies like the gigapress. Manufacturing cars with a one or two piece injection moulded aluminium chassis simplifies logistics and shortens manufacturing times so radically that no manufacturer sticking with traditional designs stands a chance against them. They are reducing costs steadily and forcing down the market price so that the traditional automakers won't be able to make a profit.
We will see many car companies go to the wall.
For all it's early lead with the Leaf, Nissan is so far behind the state of the art that it's business in China is effectively bankrupt because the Chinese won't buy them. Toyota likewise started well with the Prius but now has nothing competitive just the same promises that it has been trotting out for a decade without a single competitive EV to sell.

Battery tech is advancing rapidly. Watch BYD and CATL.
The idea of converting existing designs of cars to hydrogen or ethanol engines is rather irrelevant when tesla's tech will allow them to undercut legacy car manufacturing.

I've driven a tesla. I didn't especially like it as a comfortable car, but power, simplicity and long term reliably / low cost of ownership as the batteries steadily improve will be hard to ignore.

 

[Jacob]

I'm... really not sure that's entirely true. Even ignoring the differences in transport and storage of liquid hydrogen vs gasoline, there are major differences in the way engines burn hydrogen, including energy density issues. I'm assuming we're not talking about fuel cells, as that's yet another (different) kettle of fish.

I'm only talking about the distribution.
The user vehicles are not there.
Neither is the green electricity generation - which applies to EVs to - easy to forget that EVs are quite pointless so far, except for lowering pollution.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Ford have a different slant Ford wants to be able to shut down your air conditioner and radio if you miss a car payment—and the car could even drive away on its own .If anybody can be bothered to follow the link,it explains that Ford have patented a technology to remotely disable some features of a car if a finance payment is missed.I suppose the reason for the patent is to licence the technology to other car companies.Good wheeze that,getting the opposition to give you money.

I worked on a system that did something like that 30 years ago. It was for South Africa. When your car got hijacked you waited for it to get a bit down the road, hide yourself and press the disable transmitter. It killed the engine and the hijackers typically abandoned the vehicle.

 

[sploo]

I'm only talking about the distribution.
The user vehicles are not there.
Neither is the green electricity generation - which applies to EVs to - easy to forget that EVs are quite pointless so far, except for lowering pollution.

Neither's the distribution (hint: gasoline does not need to be transported at -250C).

 

[Jacob]

Neither's the distribution (hint: gasoline does not need to be transported at -250C).

Splitting hairs. Hint: same wagons, different tanks.

 

[worn thumbs]

I worked on a system that did something like that 30 years ago. It was for South Africa. When your car got hijacked you waited for it to get a bit down the road, hide yourself and press the disable transmitter. It killed the engine and the hijackers typically abandoned the vehicle.

If it was close enough to fall within the definition of "prior art" for patenting purposes,you might be figuring on the Christmas card lists of several major car makers-if you let them know.

On the topic of hydrogen,it isn't just transporting the stuff.The parts of the vehicle it comes into contact with may well suffer hydrogen embrittlement.Which could lead to breakages and leaks.

 

[John Brown]

I'm... really not sure that's entirely true. Even ignoring the differences in transport and storage of liquid hydrogen vs gasoline, there are major differences in the way engines burn hydrogen, including energy density issues. I'm assuming we're not talking about fuel cells, as that's yet another (different) kettle of fish.

Aren't fuel cells the only option, if you want to buy a hydrogen fuelled car?

 

[sploo]

Splitting hairs. Hint: same wagons, different tanks.

Different tanks, different handling requirements, different safety issues. So.. basically a completely different delivery fleet.

Handling an (admittedly flammable) liquid at ambient temperature vs handling a (highly flammable) liquid at 20 Kelvin is just slightly different. It also goes "boom" more easily than gasoline.

 

[sploo]

Aren't fuel cells the only option, if you want to buy a hydrogen fuelled car?

Practically yes. You can use hydrogen in an internal combustion engine but it's very inefficient.

 

[Spectric]

I don't think you can transport liquid hydrogen in a tanker designed for gasoline.

The hydrogen is probably safer to transport than the gasoline, gasoline will spill and burn but the hydrogen will rapidly expand and dissipate.

 

[Sachakins]

I'm only talking about the distribution.
The user vehicles are not there.
Neither is the green electricity generation - which applies to EVs to - easy to forget that EVs are quite pointless so far, except for lowering pollution.

The Liverpool City Region Metro Mayor has already invested in buying a fleet of 20 Hydrogen busses.
So far only 6 been delivered.. they ran for less than a couple of weeks. Then the worldwide hydrogen supply market collapsed, and its been a few months before they started to reappear..

So Hydrogen is more at the mercy of global production than oil or electricity.

The promise is when the UK become a Hydrogen supplier all will be well.
Sorry but it will be a private industry and sell to the highest bidder. And that ignores thefact that theUK is years away from being a major player in the Hydrogen market,if ever.....

 

[Sachakins]

The hydrogen is probably safer to transport than the gasoline, gasoline will spill and burn but the hydrogen will rapidly expand and dissipate.

The rapid expansion is explosive.

 

[sploo]

The hydrogen is probably safer to transport than the gasoline, gasoline will spill and burn but the hydrogen will rapidly expand and dissipate.

You know what a rapid expansion is, yes?

But regardless; transporting and storing a liquid that's 20 degrees above absolute zero poses issues that - if not always more dangerous - are certainly "different" to gasoline; such that significant effort/time/money would be required to supply liquid hydrogen at levels required to run vehicles.

EDIT: Sachakins beat me to the point on rapid unscheduled disassembly

 

[selectortone]

I wrote this earlier in this thread (3 years earlier!) But I believe it bears repeating:

Back when I was working, selling control systems to process industries, any process to do with hydrogen production on an industrial scale was flagged up as a very scary undertaking. Pure hydrogen is several orders of magnitude more volatile than anything else available for your average punter to pipe into their car. They have been trying to introduce hydrogen as an alternative automobile fuel in Japan for over 20 years and it is still proving to be a challenge. Hydrogen is the very simplest element, (ie one atom), which means that containing it presents significant challenges. Basically, it will leak through just about anything (c.f. The Hindenburg). Hydrogen being dispensed in a typical garage forecourt scenario, as is being posited here, is just not feasible with current affordable (ie scalable) technology.

 

[Jameshow]

This in is number three. Certainly can’t afford another one.

Why didn't you stop after 1!!!

 

[Jameshow]

They just want everybody to carry on buying their obsolescent, shiny, environmentally destructive, boy's toys, for as long as they can get away with it. Time is running out!

Sorry to say this Jacob but I reckon the ICE car will out live you Jacob!!

 

[Sachakins]

Sorry to say this Jacob but I reckon the ICE car will out live you Jacob!!

We wish

 

[paulrbarnard]

Why didn't you stop after 1!!!

It’s like dovetails you’ve got to keep practicing till you get it right.