Electric vehicles

[stuart little]

Ummm safety, a 2CV is not a safe car at all.

If a 2CV gets hit head-on it folds up at the bulkhead - I've seen such victims in France. What about Smart cars or Micro cars - who'd feel safe in one of them? Where do you put the battery (ies) - there's hardly room for shopping.

 

[AlanY]

If a 2CV gets hit head-on it folds up at the bulkhead - I've seen such victims in France. What about Smart cars or Micro cars - who'd feel safe in one of them? Where do you put the battery (ies) - there's hardly room for shopping.

That is an interesting point. I wonder if the retro-EVs are required to be subject to crash testing? It would be interesting to see if the batteries survive it or if they rupture and burn?

 

[Rorschach]

That is an interesting point. I wonder if the retro-EVs are required to be subject to crash testing? It would be interesting to see if the batteries survive it or if they rupture and burn?

It's probably like those "restored" aircraft you get. They say it's a spitfire but 99% of it is new material and only the dials are original, bit of a con really. The cars are probably the same, triggers broom, everything is new but because it looks like a 2CV they class it as such.

 

[Just4Fun]

The cars are probably the same, triggers broom, everything is new but because it looks like a 2CV they class it as such.

I competed on some historic rallies with a friend who bought his car new in 1966. I once asked him how much of the current car is from the original build. After thinking for a while his list was:
- bonnet badge
- boot lock
- one door handle

 

[Rorschach]

I competed on some historic rallies with a friend who bought his car new in 1966. I once asked him how much of the current car is from the original build. After thinking for a while his list was:
- bonnet badge
- boot lock
- one door handle

I suspect this is more common than most people think.

 

[Spectric]

I think that all this is fairly ironic, in the seventies playing with Scalextric and our milk delivered by Unigate with battery milkfloats, now we are starting to drive battery cars and collect our milk from supermarkets.

 

[selectortone]

New neighbours have just moved in over the road from me. They have a Tesla Model 3. Wow - what a beautiful car close up. The science fiction I used to read in the 60s has come to life.

I was chatting to the guy yesterday; he absolutely loves it. He was on his way out in it, he pulled away in virtual silence apart from a bit of tyre noise. I now have to figure out how I can wangle a ride in it

 

[D_W]

If a 2CV gets hit head-on it folds up at the bulkhead - I've seen such victims in France. What about Smart cars or Micro cars - who'd feel safe in one of them? Where do you put the battery (ies) - there's hardly room for shopping.

The smart brand cars do fine in a crash here except for one thing - with big cars in the US, they can get bounced and then get hit again if they're bounced into other traffic.

I'm sure this can happen with all cars, but if a car is much lighter than other cars, it increases the odds that it'll be the one moving more after impact.

 

[clogs]

my best friend in the states said when I was choosing a car to drive.....
get something with 1/2ton of iron under the hood....he wasnt wrong as it turned out later......

actually everyones slates Fiat... I saw a test when they used one and compared it to a Volvo
needless to say the Fiat was surprisingly intact in the passenger cell....it's all in the engineering.....

 

[John Brown]

TominDales my point was meant to be more general spurred by a specific case I'd read about a few months back, how do you know that with the oft quoted rapid increase in performance in EVs that in the near future your older EV battery will still be available? That makes a hybrid more attractive with less risk, you may be charged less tax than a full ICE even if your not too common lithium has totally died. Who will know the electric part no longer does a great deal?

From the 2cv site " We reached 120km of range. The engine comes from a Nissan Leaf, the batteries from a Smart. The performance is potentially spectacular, but is electronically adjusted to the 2cv. The rear springs are slightly heavier, as the weight increases by 120kg. Not a disadvantage, it makes the car drive even better, less jumpy and wonderfully smooth. "
That 120kg seems to be behind the back axle. And they leave the gearbox in?

Seperately, I know you will damage lithiums by charging when too cold, so do they have heaters in them too? Powered by what when it's flat?

Maybe powered by the charger.

 

[Ozi]

That is an interesting point. I wonder if the retro-EVs are required to be subject to crash testing? It would be interesting to see if the batteries survive it or if they rupture and burn?

They would not be tested due to low volume production. Old 2cvs are death traps by modern standards but don't put all small cars in the same category, SMART cars do surprisingly well in test and also out in the real world as do some others like the Corsa. It depends hugely on the accident but a big heavy car does not always win. My biggest concern with the batteries would not be rupturing but where they went in the impact, there isn't structure designed to hold them down. Batteries tend to be stronger than fuel tanks but I would not want to share a seat with one if I'd rolled an old car that's suspension wasn't meant to take the extra weight. It pays to think about what you have in a car, people have been badly hurt by items like crook locks rattling about in an accident. Here I am claiming to be an expert but there is a packet of chisels I have sharpened for a friend sitting on my back seat, having been a crash test engineer for more years than I want to count I should do better than that.

 

[TominDales]

TominDales my point was meant to be more general spurred by a specific case I'd read about a few months back, how do you know that with the oft quoted rapid increase in performance in EVs that in the near future your older EV battery will still be available? That makes a hybrid more attractive with less risk, you may be charged less tax than a full ICE even if your not too common lithium has totally died. Who will know the electric part no longer does a great deal?

From the 2cv site " We reached 120km of range. The engine comes from a Nissan Leaf, the batteries from a Smart. The performance is potentially spectacular, but is electronically adjusted to the 2cv. The rear springs are slightly heavier, as the weight increases by 120kg. Not a disadvantage, it makes the car drive even better, less jumpy and wonderfully smooth. "
That 120kg seems to be behind the back axle. And they leave the gearbox in?

Separately, I know you will damage lithiums by charging when too cold, so do they have heaters in them too? Powered by what when it's flat?

Hi , Yes I think right to be cautious of some of the after market, especially for bespoke models/modifications. You raise a good point about general after market stuff. I have regular meetings with the Leaf battery maker in Sunderland so will ask him about how they service the aftermarket. My understanding of their latest offer, is they have change the battery chemistry of the leafs which means a 40kwh battery now fits into the old 24kwh battery slot and costs no more than the original. The AESC (who make the battery) guys say that is a bonus upgrade for new users. The 60kwh battery is large and costs more.
Word is that hey are planning to upgrade the battery chemistry in about 2 years time to the latest low cobalt cell which will have aditoinal range. I'll ask if they are maintaining spares for older models.

Interestingly on the guys told me that when Nissan sold the plan to AESC they gave a £30mish bond to cover faulty batteries and returns under warrenty. So far that bond has not been used at all as they have had zero failures.

 

[Just4Fun]

What do people think about the ultra-cheap EVs available from China? For example:
Solar EV car on alibaba
Anybody seen or tried anything like that? Or seen a review?
What sort of range are they likely to have in reality?
Do they perform well enough to keep up with the normal flow of traffic?
Is the build quality as low as the price might suggest?
Are they street legal in the UK and/or EU?

 

[Rorschach]

What do people think about the ultra-cheap EVs available from China? For example:
Solar EV car on alibaba
Anybody seen or tried anything like that? Or seen a review?
What sort of range are they likely to have in reality?
Do they perform well enough to keep up with the normal flow of traffic?
Is the build quality as low as the price might suggest?
Are they street legal in the UK and/or EU?

I doubt they are legal but it would be interesting to know and I expect cars like this will be very common soon.
The solar panel on the roof though is just laughable, it might charge up your phone or run the satnav but to actually make any kind of meaningful charge on the car battery, nah, not gonna happen.

Oh and top speed 50km/h so not suitable for A-roads in the UK.

 

[John Brown]

Rorschach is too young to remember the Sinclair C5. The gulf between the hyped product and the real thing was breathtaking. I can't imagine how Clive's credibility must have suffered. An acquaintance of mine bought one, solely so that he could drive to the pub and back without fear of losing his licence. After everybody had taken it for a spin, he almost invariably ended up having to pedal home.

 

[Rorschach]

Rorschach is too young to remember the Sinclair C5. The gulf between the hyped product and the real thing was breathtaking. I can't imagine how Clive's credibility must have suffered. An acquaintance of mine bought one, solely so that he could drive to the pub and back without fear of losing his licence. After everybody had taken it for a spin, he almost invariably ended up having to pedal home.

Just a little bit lol.

I think the problem with the C5, aside from the fact that the technology didn't exist to make it a practical vehicle (that's something that could have been overcome if demand was there), is that it was a solution looking for a problem.

 

[Just4Fun]

The solar panel on the roof though is just laughable

Inadequate, yes; it could not be the sole charging method. In some uses it might be a useful addition though and perhaps better to have it than not.

Oh and top speed 50km/h so not suitable for A-roads in the UK.

Yes, totally unrealistic on the open road even if they had the range for any useful journeys. I doubt that would be why someone would buy one though.
Over here you can get a licence for a "moped car" at a younger age than you can get a full car licence. These are limited to 50 KPH and they seem to keep up OK in towns & cities which I guess is the most likely environment in which to use one of these cheapo electric cars. I don't see top speed as a major concern for a glorified shopping trolley.

 

[hairy]

In trying to find the article I mentioned where a secondhand EV buyer ended up with not being able to buy a replacement battery turning the whole car into landfill or a chicken shed I did stumble across an article about the Leaf 40KW battery losing capacity on each charge considerably more quickly than the smaller one.

https://insideevs.com/news/337439/nissan-issues-statement-on-leaf-30-kwh-battery-degradation/
If you search for Leaf 40KW battery issues there are plenty of people saying they have issues which the manufacturer doesn't seem to want to deal with. I am sure they have very few "failures" because that is an absolute term in the warranty I am sure, but ending up with something that doesn't do what was advertised is a harder thing to prove I would think.

Not that I'm going to buy an EV. Having spent some time reseaching lithiums for my camper, and installed enough with solar to run a washing machine in that when parked near the Med, I can't see it being a sensible choice for the environment, short or long term personal or business vehicle use, or as a domestic storage unit to be run from solar or a turbine to put my house off grid. All cars should be made to a more basic standard and be as light as possible, carting round more weight than needed rather than desired is too wastefull. Simplify and add lightness was and will always be true, not bolt in hundreds of kg of lithium. The only sensible use for an EV IMHO is to hopefully reduce particulates in areas where there are too many, like some city centres only.

Hi , Yes I think right to be cautious of some of the after market, especially for bespoke models/modifications. You raise a good point about general after market stuff. I have regular meetings with the Leaf battery maker in Sunderland so will ask him about how they service the aftermarket. My understanding of their latest offer, is they have change the battery chemistry of the leafs which means a 40kwh battery now fits into the old 24kwh battery slot and costs no more than the original. The AESC (who make the battery) guys say that is a bonus upgrade for new users. The 60kwh battery is large and costs more.
Word is that hey are planning to upgrade the battery chemistry in about 2 years time to the latest low cobalt cell which will have aditoinal range. I'll ask if they are maintaining spares for older models.

Interestingly on the guys told me that when Nissan sold the plan to AESC they gave a £30mish bond to cover faulty batteries and returns under warrenty. So far that bond has not been used at all as they have had zero failures.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

A small EV for less than £10k! It may be the future of city transport:

• a max speed of 50mph would be more than adequate
• range of less than 100 miles would suffice for journeys typically 1-5 miles
• even if the pv roof only managed 1 or 2 kw per day may suffice for very local use

I doubt this is the solution - probably non-compliant in UK, safer than a motorbike or scooter (but probably not much), built down to a price (not up to a quality standard) etc. No use on main roads or for long journeys - but that's not what it's designed to do.

 

[John Brown]

A small EV for less than £10k! It may be the future of city transport:

• a max speed of 50mph would be more than adequate
• range of less than 100 miles would suffice for journeys typically 1-5 miles
• even if the pv roof only managed 1 or 2 kw per day may suffice for very local use

I doubt this is the solution - probably non-compliant in UK, safer than a motorbike or scooter (but probably not much), built down to a price (not up to a quality standard) etc. No use on main roads or for long journeys - but that's not what it's designed to do.

Assuming you mean kwh, rather than kw, then with a rough figure of 150w per square metre, you're looking for about 7 hours of sunshine. Maybe slightly better if solar cells become more efficient, but then again, they're not going to be optimally angled, and there are some tall buildings about.
For once I agree with Rorschach the younger. Fairly pointless.