Electric vehicles

[Bodgers]

No, it is dual motor, one at the front, one at the back.

 

[RogerS]

....
On the 4WD question, I think (not sure) the Model X has an electric motor on each corner. It has ludicrous levels of acceleration (4 secs 0-60 or something) but you need to tow a power station in order to use it for long.

That was what I feared. We live on the top of a very very steep twisty hill. In Northumberland. Lot of run off from the fields. Not to mention the odd snow. So 4x4 is mandatory. Looks like I'll pass for a while.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Although I believe quite strongly that EVs will become the default choice of new car purchase within just a few years (2-3) I also believe the full impact will not be apparent on the roads for at least 15 years.

There are 38m vehicles on UK roads. The average life is 8.2 years - suggesting that (averagely) they are scrapped after aound 16 years. This fits well with typical new vehicle sales of around 2.5m pa.

Most people do not buy and cannot afford a new car. It's probably a fair assumption that most vehicles below 3 -4 years old were acquired new either with cash, HP or PCP deals. So 75% of people drive cars that are 2nd, 3rd, 4th hand.

The number of used EVs available are limited by low historic sales. They are expensive compared to ICE equivalents and embed now outdated tech. For the used EV market to develop requires sales of new EVs in sufficient quantities to supply the market at reasonable prices.

Therefore the used ICE market seems likely to persist for many years after the new market is EV dominated.

 

[Bodgers]

....
On the 4WD question, I think (not sure) the Model X has an electric motor on each corner. It has ludicrous levels of acceleration (4 secs 0-60 or something) but you need to tow a power station in order to use it for long.

That was what I feared. We live on the top of a very very steep twisty hill. In Northumberland. Lot of run off from the fields. Not to mention the odd snow. So 4x4 is mandatory. Looks like I'll pass for a while.

Wrong impression may have been gained. Unless you are doing constant flat out 0-60s the energy consumption is actually pretty good!

 

[RogerS]

....
On the 4WD question, I think (not sure) the Model X has an electric motor on each corner. It has ludicrous levels of acceleration (4 secs 0-60 or something) but you need to tow a power station in order to use it for long.

That was what I feared. We live on the top of a very very steep twisty hill. In Northumberland. Lot of run off from the fields. Not to mention the odd snow. So 4x4 is mandatory. Looks like I'll pass for a while.

Wrong impression may have been gained. Unless you are doing constant flat out 0-60s the energy consumption is actually pretty good!

I'm not worried about range. More about slipping all the way down the hill and out of control ! I did it once in the Q3 Quattro ...admittedly not with the tyres I have now on...and although I was doing only about 5mph under engine braking. I had to change me kecks at the bottom.

 

[AJB Temple]

All four wheels are driven. I was only saying that the range is deeply affected by heaviness of right foot. If I want to drive it really fast, range goes down.

It is fine on hills. I've been all over the Swiss Alps in it in winter, based from Mannerdorf (work in Zurich some of the time) and like any 4WD it is fine as long as you stick winter tyres on it. Q7 is the same - needs smaller wheels and the bigger winter tyres we put on at this time of year.

Like most big SUVs you can set the ground clearance right up electronically and you can set it for slippery conditions. Copes just as well as the Q7.

Nothing in the UK roads is going to bother it. But, it is not an off roader like a proper Land Rover or even Range Rover.

 

[AES]

@Bodger: Far from me to let a small matter like reality (i.e. the truth) to get in the way of a good discussion (I'm much enjoying this thread, AND learning a lot, WITHOUT having my own dog in the ring)!

But I cannot let your statement, QUOTE: MRI machines? Are they a step too far? Over relying on technology when a good old fashioned physical can do the job? UNQUOTE: go unchallenged mate!

As someone who has had MANY MRIs (and similar/related-technology scans) over the last few years (the last was last week!), I can assure you that based on FACTS given me by the physicians, surgeons, and technicians involved, far from these technologies being used just instead of "surgical OR physical inspections", todays scanning technologies actually provide MORE information - and more precisely - about the need for subsequent surgical intervention (or not) than the sort of physical examinations and/or invasive surgery that was previously carried out "only" for investigative purposes.

Furthermore, it's clear to even a "good old Luddite" like me that over the last, say, 5 years, these scanning technologies have improved their capabilities enormously - and will no doubt continue that trend.

So sorry Bodger, I'm crying "Foul", and "Yellow Card" on that one. "Point disallowed on a point of fact Mr. Chairman"

 

[Droogs]

Now before anyone says "There's never enough charge points". That is total boollax it may happen occasionally but then is the pump free at every fuel station every time you go or have you ever had to wait.

.....

AT the moment you can lease an MG with a 160 mile 44KWh battery for £250. Are any of you going to honestly argue that that car would not meet the needs of the majority of the users of this forum taking the full costs of running a car for a year and the types of journeys most will do?

First I'll say I am not against electric cars or any other alternative, and for my own personal use , the mileage I do at the moment, an electric car as they are today would indeed be perfectly adequate, and if it weren't for cost my next car may indeed be electric.
I found your initial post in this thread interesting and informative but with comments like those above we seem to be drifting into argument for arguments sake (sorry)

I am trying to point out the extreme and narrow thought process put forward by the exponents of these arguement trains. It is a common misconception that something we do all the time does not take up a lot of our actual time even when it does. People only take the time in front of the pump into consideration but people nip to the garage far more often to fill up than they conciously realize. In no way am I saying that everyone must switch right now. I own a Kia Seddona as my personal vehicle it has a 2.9 diesel engine and I love it to bits due to it's practicality and have said so in other threads. but there are plenty of times I have gone to fill up before a big journey the night before going on holiday etc and if busy that has taken up to 30 mins in the past.

If there's a queue at the petrol station its a few minutes per car wait not 30 minutes per car, that's just common sense.

Are any of the manufacturers providing a quick swap method? where one can unplug and withdraw a 'cell' and swap them from a bank of charged ones at the shop to cover a short range of say 10 -20 miles to get one home? That would seem to be a sensible option.

As mentioned in my earlier post Nio, who are coming to europe have a quick change system. You buy the car and pay a membership fee per month, I believe it is around £30 and you can charge at any of their chargers no additional costs and they also have quick change stations on the main motorways and in most of the chinese cities as people there (around 90% of urban dwellers) do not have private parking as they all live in flats.
Using their app you can pre-book appointments to have a battery change at anypoint in you want in your commute etc or during long jouneys etc or if you turn up you wait until a free slot . A pre-booked appointment takes 9 minutes

According to a quick google there were 38million vehicles on the road in the UK in 2019.
From that figure I will take a punt that at least a few million of those are owned by the not so well off. Those that can, at the moment, buy a car for a few hundred quid, pay for the road tax and insurance monthly and put fuel in as and when needed. It can sit on the roadside unused for weeks at a time if need be. Yes petrol is more expensive than electric but if I do 50 miles a month , once a week to the supermarket or visiting aunt Ethel* up the road, they can 'pay as you go' and not have go into debt they cannot afford (even if it was offered to them in the first place) for a lease or purchase of a new vehicle.
Leasing or buying an EV is not an option for literally millions of people and never will be.

At no point have I said all ICE cars should be taken off the road. I have been extolling (and it unfortunately assumed it was clear) that my arguement is for those who are buying a new car. I am only getting a new car as it will be a business expense as a self employed PHV driver. I could in no way afford one of any kind otherwise. I would be driving my Seddona until it fell apart, I died or in around 10 years time I could afford to buy a well used BEV. I will still use the Seddona for holidays (camping etc) and for any woodwork related stuff I need to move around but everything else will be done in the BEV.

hope that answer some of your points Nev

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Some of the off-road pickup solutions that may make it into production soon: [youtube]D_untxR-1u8[/youtube]

Good old USA and their pickup trucks...

 

[nev]

Thanks Droogs, it does.

I just find it incomprehensible that there will (ever?) be an infrastructure in place in the next ten or twenty years that can cater for every household, place of business, car park (think hospitals and large institutions and employers etc) and every vehicle in every street, town and city in the UK, accessible to each of those 38million vehicles including the vans, trucks and motorcycles (probably the easiest to electrify) not to mention the ships and planes etc.

Once the ICE sales ban is implemented we're almost certain to then ban resales within x years too.

The whole 'lets get this thing done' seems to be thought up and implemented by those that have private parking both at home and office, plenty of disposable income and absolutely no idea what the logistics, cost (where's that coming from?) or timescales would be for basically a complete restructuring of UK's transport network (for want of a better term).
I'm all for innovation, development and progress but the infrastructure must be in place before the rules by the rich and shameless are implemented. I'm not a communist by the way even though reading this back I seem to be anti- wealth, I'm just an average Joe who thinks I'm more than likely to be priced off the road in the not too distant future in a futile attempt to appease the greenies so that our tiny little Island can say "it wasn't our fault!" to Asia, Africa and the Americas when the next ice age comes along.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Thanks Droogs, it does.

I just find it incomprehensible that there will (ever?) be an infrastructure in place in the next ten or twenty years that can cater for every household, place of business, car park (think hospitals and large institutions and employers etc) and every vehicle in every street, town and city in the UK, accessible to each of those 38million vehicles including the vans, trucks and motorcycles (probably the easiest to electrify) not to mention the ships and planes etc.

Once the ICE sales ban is implemented we're almost certain to then ban resales within x years too.

The whole 'lets get this thing done' seems to be thought up and implemented by those that have private parking both at home and office, plenty of disposable income and absolutely no idea what the logistics, cost (where's that coming from?) or timescales would be for basically a complete restructuring of UK's transport network (for want of a better term).
I'm all for innovation, development and progress but the infrastructure must be in place before the rules by the rich and shameless are implemented. I'm not a communist by the way even though reading this back I seem to be anti- wealth, I'm just an average Joe who thinks I'm more than likely to be priced off the road in the not too distant future in a futile attempt to appease the greenies so that our tiny little Island can say "it wasn't our fault!" to Asia, Africa and the Americas when the next ice age comes along.

As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread (or was it a different one? I've lost track), the UK will need somewhere between 45 and lots more than 45 new power stations to provide the electricity to run all these cars. These power stations can not be fossil fuel powered, so will be vast tracts of solar panels, forests of windmills, or many, many new reservoirs for hydroelectric power. The nuclear option probably isn't affordable, although there will be a faction fighting for it because of all the money to be made stealing from the government.

No one seems to be talking about that bit, because it is awkward.

 

[nev]

Also why aren't the cars themselves covered in solar panels? (serious question) surely a roof and bonnets worth has got to have some effect?

 

[Bodgers]

@Bodger: Far from me to let a small matter like reality (i.e. the truth) to get in the way of a good discussion (I'm much enjoying this thread, AND learning a lot, WITHOUT having my own dog in the ring)!

But I cannot let your statement, QUOTE: MRI machines? Are they a step too far? Over relying on technology when a good old fashioned physical can do the job? UNQUOTE: go unchallenged mate!

As someone who has had MANY MRIs (and similar/related-technology scans) over the last few years (the last was last week!), I can assure you that based on FACTS given me by the physicians, surgeons, and technicians involved, far from these technologies being used just instead of "surgical OR physical inspections", todays scanning technologies actually provide MORE information - and more precisely - about the need for subsequent surgical intervention (or not) than the sort of physical examinations and/or invasive surgery that was previously carried out "only" for investigative purposes.

Furthermore, it's clear to even a "good old Luddite" like me that over the last, say, 5 years, these scanning technologies have improved their capabilities enormously - and will no doubt continue that trend.

So sorry Bodger, I'm crying "Foul", and "Yellow Card" on that one. "Point disallowed on a point of fact Mr. Chairman"

Err...I think you have completely reversed what I was saying...

Read it in context as a question in response to the person I was replying to...

 

[Geoff_S]

Also why aren't the cars themselves covered in solar panels? (serious question) surely a roof and bonnets worth has got to have some effect?

A solar panel on the roof of a car will provide about 1 mile of range per hour or so I’ve been told

 

[Droogs]

Also why aren't the cars themselves covered in solar panels? (serious question) surely a roof and bonnets worth has got to have some effect?

have a look here
https://sonomotors.com/

 

[Geoff_S]

Also why aren't the cars themselves covered in solar panels? (serious question) surely a roof and bonnets worth has got to have some effect?

have a look here
https://sonomotors.com/

Well based on our current weather, I’d be getting the bus a lot!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

You wouldn't. Buses are bigger and heavier than cars, so they'd need even more solar panels!

 

[MusicMan]

Also why aren't the cars themselves covered in solar panels? (serious question) surely a roof and bonnets worth has got to have some effect?

Serious answer. Solar irradiation is about 1 kW per square metre when sunny and when the receptor is pointing directly at the sun (which it isn't most of the time). Conversion efficiency is 20 - 25% (slow increases coming but not much). So with a roof area of a few square metres and an optimistic overall efficiency of 10%, on a good day one gets a few hundred watts, say an optimistic 4 kW hours in a full day. On a car such as a Leaf with 40 KWH to do 160 wish miles, it would add about 16 miles range on a very sunny day.

So yes, it has some effect but hardly worth the expense. I did work out that it was just about feasible to run a 70 ft narrowboat with solar panel on the roof. These have a lot of roof and need little power.

I used to be engineering director of a solar energy company. Solar panels are worth while (I have them on a south-facing roof) but not on most mobile units. You can get 40 - 50% efficiency on the compound semiconductor cells used in satellites and the ISS, but those are *really* expensive.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Thanks Droogs, it does.

I just find it incomprehensible that there will (ever?) be an infrastructure in place in the next ten or twenty years that can cater for every household, place of business, car park (think hospitals and large institutions and employers etc) and every vehicle in every street, town and city in the UK, accessible to each of those 38million vehicles including the vans, trucks and motorcycles (probably the easiest to electrify) not to mention the ships and planes etc.

Once the ICE sales ban is implemented we're almost certain to then ban resales within x years too.

The whole 'lets get this thing done' seems to be thought up and implemented by those that have private parking both at home and office, plenty of disposable income and absolutely no idea what the logistics, cost (where's that coming from?) or timescales would be for basically a complete restructuring of UK's transport network (for want of a better term).
I'm all for innovation, development and progress but the infrastructure must be in place before the rules by the rich and shameless are implemented. I'm not a communist by the way even though reading this back I seem to be anti- wealth, I'm just an average Joe who thinks I'm more than likely to be priced off the road in the not too distant future in a futile attempt to appease the greenies so that our tiny little Island can say "it wasn't our fault!" to Asia, Africa and the Americas when the next ice age comes along.

I think you need to bear in mind that a government suggestion that it will ban the sale of ICE vehicles at some date more than a decade into the future is simply a way to gain greenwash points in the media based on the latest advice from 'advisors'. This is not a statement of intent to actually do anything, just a space-chimp-like expectation that the world will have moved on by then.
In the same way that we can still see horse-drawn vehicles, I'm sure we will still see ICE vehicles in a few decades time.
I think it is difficult to appreciate the pace of technological change.
Quiz question: a century ago, the largest single consumer of British-mined coal was?
I am enthusiastic and optimistic that our transport and electricity supply infrastructure will be vastly different in a decade or so - it needs to be.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Indeed ! Words from politicians about what will happen in 15 years time are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

IMHO, we are addressing quite the wrong problem with worrying about what fuels cars. More we need to worry about why people need to spend so much time charging around like blue-pineappled flies by all forms of transport - like providing a sensible distribution of housing and employment, encouraging work from home, technological alternatives to face to face meetings, etc, etc.