Electric vehicles - again

[heimlaga]

That's if the batteries haven't caught fire beforehand. There's a few YouTube videos floating around of them catching fire quite spectacularly



This was my plan also. My previous car (also a Toyota) was 2 months away from its 21st birthday. I bought it 3 years ago as my first car and it was mechanically sound still, 80,000 miles on the clock and still going strong. I replaced a few parts (mostly fixtures like a sunroof and misty headlights) but the car itself still ran perfectly.

But then, one day in September I was asked to park it in the street while work was being done on the front of our house and my beloved car was stolen. Handbrake cable cut and winched away on a recovery truck (this was at 11am I should add and was even filmed by a neighbor on his mobile phone). The car the police told me, that I thought would go on for quite a few more years, was stolen for scrap and would probably be in bits now. The greenest thing to do I was advised was to keep the car going for as long as possible, even though it did consume more fuel, but when my car was stolen I was advised to get a self charging hybrid.

I should of added that my Toyota hybrid is 6 years old but with only 20k on the clock, but my mechanic who used to work at Toyota, assured me that it had at least 100k if not more in it. I don't drive huge miles and so I'm hoping this car will last me a lot longer than my previous one (I don't intend to park it on the street anymore)

The difference being that when your old car was stolen you could afford to buy an almost new hybrid.
For me that would mean taking loans on a level which could only go one way. Bankrupsy and property auction.
I do not bash you for that. You probably did a sensibe thing in your situation.
We others who are less well off can only buy another old car. I just wonder what an electric car will be like when it is 37 years with 350000 km on the clock as my old car was when I was forced to take it out of insurance and use due to shortage of spare parts. I also wonder what a "new" 15-20 years old electric car will be like when one buys it.

 

[Doris]

The difference being that when your old car was stolen you could afford to buy an almost new hybrid.
For me that would mean taking loans on a level which could only go one way. Bankrupsy and property auction.
I do not bash you for that. You probably did a sensibe thing in your situation.
We others who are less well off can only buy another old car.

I quite agree. If I wasn't as fortunate to have been able to buy a hybrid I would have bought the exact same car I had been driving before, there are still quite a few of them around considering how old they are now. Many people called it a banger because it was old but they're outliving some much newer cars. Although this new E10 fuel it apparently wouldn't have liked and never got the chance to see for myself as it was stolen the day I was due to fill it up. I still miss my old car very much, even though my new car is very smart and greener it doesn't have the fun in it, if you get what I mean.

 

[heimlaga]

I understand. A rugged design which you have gotten used to and know how to get the best out of. Hard to beat.

I would not change my 50 years old tractor for an brand new one even if someone was foolish enough to make the offer.

 

[Fergie 307]

The difference being that when your old car was stolen you could afford to buy an almost new hybrid.
For me that would mean taking loans on a level which could only go one way. Bankrupsy and property auction.
I do not bash you for that. You probably did a sensibe thing in your situation.
We others who are less well off can only buy another old car. I just wonder what an electric car will be like when it is 37 years with 350000 km on the clock as my old car was when I was forced to take it out of insurance and use due to shortage of spare parts. I also wonder what a "new" 15-20 years old electric car will be like when one buys it.

Good for you. Older cars also have the advantage that they tend to have less in the way of fancy electronic gadgets to go wrong, often impossible to repair as they are totally sealed. My daily driver is a 1993 Jeep Cherokee with over 150,000 miles, about 100,000 of which in.my ownership. Runs on LPG so very low emissions etc. Has cost me very little over the years apart from routine servicing, which I do myself. Bit annoyed at the recent hike in the price of gas though, went from 56 to 72p a litre in the space of a month, scandalous.

 

[D_W]

That's if the batteries haven't caught fire beforehand. There's a few YouTube videos floating around of them catching fire quite spectacularly

See comment above - fire incidents are 1/10th as common as internal combustion cars. Not sure if tesla has any fatalities, but the S is in a lot of those videos. What I read about the fires is this:
* the S is far less common than gas cars (but not 1/10th -1/10th includes the model 3 which has lower fire incidence per billion road miles of data) when burning
* when the battery cars burn, they burn for a long time
* when gas cars burn, especially if they burn enough to rupture the gas tank, the fire is more intense, but its hot and quick

But worrying about fires in battery powered cars having not worried about it in gas powered cars doesn't make sense. Deaths in gas powered cars occur sometimes if the fire starts near the gas tank (according to the NHTSA article).

I don't have a battery car - they're still in the early adopter phase (more expensive). In my house, I"ve taken over the garage as a shop - batteries or not, I don't want to give it up (and the teslas, etc, would charge fine outside, but they spend some moderate amount of energy conditioning the battery packs to a given temp. The garage is below my bedrooms, so the idea now thinking back - of parking gas cars in there in the first place wasn't spectacular. I have oxy and mapp bottles in the garage now (just the plumber type). My wife loves to speculate that they're going to explode spontaneously, but didn't think twice about parking cars in the garage.

 

[Fergie 307]

I'm going to stick my head over the parapet one more time.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/video/is-the-world-ready-for-tiny-evs/vi-AASvYE9
Step by step these get more practical, 80 mph and 100 mile range single seat transport on a motorbike license with some of the creature comforts of a car, charges from a 13amp socket. If solid state batteries come along we are getting close to the point where if you need to charge up it will take less time than filling a petrol tank, although not at 13amps. Only 60 sold so far but give them some incentives like free parking at the station car park, zero congestion charge etc. Tax transport by weight (damage to roads), give employers tax breaks if employees can charge at work and who knows. For those like me who commute <20miles each way and have a driveway, charge 3 times a week on cheep rate power. Not for everybody I realize but this and a small family car with the option to hire a hydrogen powered van when I need one and I might never buy petrol again.

Same boat, my regular commute is about 12 miles each way, would love to go electric, but just too expensive. tried it by push bike once, terrifying will never do that again. What we need is an electric version of the little two seaters you see in Holland, can't remember who makes them. Maybe with a top speed of 50mph and 100 mile range. I am sure if they made enough of them the price would come down to a more affordable level. Maybe some incentive from government could kick start it. In the meantime I will carry on with LPG. Or in the summer my old 2stroke MZ bike, not very green but quite a hoot.

 

[Smike]

I'm going to stick my head over the parapet one more time.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/video/is-the-world-ready-for-tiny-evs/vi-AASvYE9
Step by step these get more practical, 80 mph and 100 mile range single seat transport on a motorbike license with some of the creature comforts of a car, charges from a 13amp socket. If solid state batteries come along we are getting close to the point where if you need to charge up it will take less time than filling a petrol tank, although not at 13amps. Only 60 sold so far but give them some incentives like free parking at the station car park, zero congestion charge etc. Tax transport by weight (damage to roads), give employers tax breaks if employees can charge at work and who knows. For those like me who commute <20miles each way and have a driveway, charge 3 times a week on cheep rate power. Not for everybody I realize but this and a small family car with the option to hire a hydrogen powered van when I need one and I might never buy petrol again.

Yes not bad. Decent range and usable top speed, unlike the Twizy or Ami. A very high percentage of cars I see has only one occupant. To help relieve congestion it’s important to size this sort of vehicle so that two can fit comfortably side by side on our roads and parking spaces. Also try to keep prices below say £8 K ?

 

[John on the Wirral]

I'm going to stick my head over the parapet one more time.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/video/is-the-world-ready-for-tiny-evs/vi-AASvYE9
Step by step these get more practical, 80 mph and 100 mile range single seat transport on a motorbike license with some of the creature comforts of a car, charges from a 13amp socket. If solid state batteries come along we are getting close to the point where if you need to charge up it will take less time than filling a petrol tank, although not at 13amps. Only 60 sold so far but give them some incentives like free parking at the station car park, zero congestion charge etc. Tax transport by weight (damage to roads), give employers tax breaks if employees can charge at work and who knows. For those like me who commute <20miles each way and have a driveway, charge 3 times a week on cheep rate power. Not for everybody I realize but this and a small family car with the option to hire a hydrogen powered van when I need one and I might never buy petrol again.

I run a self-charging hybrid and will be looking into the plug-in version as this would give me the best option in my opinion. I am retired so shopping and visiting friends is my usual mileage. I have a driveway so I only intend keeping my battery charged up using 13 amp - I appreciate that there have been tremendous advances in battery technology ( I fly model planes so I appreciate the advances). So,most of my usage would be local and the plug-in varient of my Kia is up to 38 miles but would hardly bother me as I would keep the battery topped up. On the occasional long journey.I will be running on at a good return as the first 30-40miles are "free". My friends who run full EV have had very stressful moments. I don't think that elecric is necessaryly the answer unless the boffin in Cornwall has the answer (see Metro paper). He reckons he can make air ally battteries from scrap ally. To good to be true? April Fools joke? My friend has researched it a bit and it seems he has UK backers and has bought the "Austin" name and some premises. This,of course,would be a massiive gamechanger especially as the little pancake battery he holds in his hand supposedly -wait for it - gives a 1500 mile range!

 

[Just4Fun]

So,most of my usage would be local and the plug-in varient of my Kia is up to 38 miles but would hardly bother me as I would keep the battery topped up.

I read something recently by someone who had owned an EV for a few years, and this is exactly what he did. He would make a short trip, come home, and plug the car in to recharge it. He now says this cycling the battery between, say, 100% and 80% was the wrong thing to do; it would have been better for the battery to let the charge drop lower before recharging it. Because he did not do that the maximum battery capacity had dropped considerably.
I don't know if more modern batteries would suffer from the same issue, but it could be worth checking the optimal recharge strategy.

 

[Spectric]

We do need clean transport but it is the timescale which is being pushed that will cause the most issues, it is like we have suddenly woken up and trying to run before we can walk. There will be a need for the ICE for many years to come, may not be burning diesel or petroleum but there are many cases where using electric just cannot work in the foreseable future, look at Maersk who ship a million containers a day, going electric will reduce there capacity by 60% and they are therefore looking at hydrogen ICE's with a new vessel now on order. As for personal transport, hybrids are the first steps because you don't have any issues with mileage and you can also look at using an ICE to just turn a generator or hydraulic pump which also allows for a cleaner solution.

 

[hairy]

I like the OP but considering what Piaggio offer with three wheels I think that would suggest the OP would not be classed as a motorbike in Europe?
I really liked the Twizzy but don't know why they didn't make it weather tight.
I may get a Honda Super Cub that they say does 180mpg, more realistically only 150mpg and just suit up. Having had bikes and cars of a very minimal nature I don't think getting hit by something bigger in one or other would turn out much different. Three wheels helps stay upright of course.
However common or not an EV fire is, putting it out is a big issue. A lithium/hydrogen hybrid as Hyundai are making, well, what could possibly go wrong

 

[Terry - Somerset]

A typical EV weighs in at 1500-1800kg - usually carries 75-150kg of human cargo - hugely inefficient.

There is a strong argument for an EV which has a range of ~50 miles, and top speed of ~50mph. For urban use this could be built very light weight (below ~300kg?).

Battery pack for a full EV weighs 4-500kg. An urban EV may need 20-40 kg batteries to provide the urban performance required with low vehicle weight. Batteries could be demountable, modular (max weight per module <15kg), charged domestically without a separate charging point.

At volume this could be cheap local transport. On a purely personal note,

• uncomfortable going full EV due to range limitations (an issue 10-20 times a year)
• hybrid possible but expensive - typically buy cars around 1-2 years old, keep for several years
• urban EV would make sense as 2nd car in household (current one needs replacement)

 

[Ozi]

Yes not bad. Decent range and usable top speed, unlike the Twizy or Ami. A very high percentage of cars I see has only one occupant. To help relieve congestion it’s important to size this sort of vehicle so that two can fit comfortably side by side on our roads and parking spaces. Also try to keep prices below say £8 K ?

Very much agree on the two seats option, possibly set up as two or one plus luggage. This will get more possible as batteries continue to improve, this is the first single seater I have seen that I could actualy see me buying if it becomes available. Should also be possible to pull a very small trailer to carry shopping and or range extending battery. If we are talking very basic very small vehicles then £8K should be easily achieved if but only if volume production can be achieved, for that to happen they need to be practical and I think this is getting close but they also need to be incentivized. the benefits to the country could be huge, our other options will be extremely expensive.

We carry on as we are. Ever increasing fuel costs, pollution, congestion, etc.

We go all electric with vehicles similar to current. We have to massively increase the amount of power we generate build new power stations, all the infrastructure issues.

or we stop driving around in 5 seat vehicles of ever increasing size (except when necessary)

Cars like these will never cover all requirements, I would like to see flexible hire contracts where people such as myself could commute in a micro vehicle at low cost to me and the world in general then easily swap the vehicle for a reasonable charge if I need a van, towing vehicle or what ever only for the time I actually need it. That would be a great cost saving all round for people like my in-laws who drive a monstrous SUV because they need it to tow their caravan once a year!

 

[powertools]

I just wish that people would stop thinking that ev's are zero emission and have no impact on the environment.

 

[Martin_S]

I just wish that people would stop thinking that ev's are zero emission and have no impact on the environment.

I think you are taking the 'zero emission' statement as a literal when what it actually means is 'no CO2 or NOX emissions from the exhaust' - which is actually pretty good.
Add to that the fact that the brakes don't wear like ICE vehicles because you rarely use them, so less particulate emissions and many less moving parts so less wear and tear.
But yes, you do get 'emissions' - the tyres on my EV wear (not as fast as on an ICE vehicle) and that produces particulates - but so little compared to an ICE I struggle when people try to justify not changing based on this sort of argument.

 

[Ozi]

I run a self-charging hybrid and will be looking into the plug-in version as this would give me the best option in my opinion. I am retired so shopping and visiting friends is my usual mileage. I have a driveway so I only intend keeping my battery charged up using 13 amp - I appreciate that there have been tremendous advances in battery technology ( I fly model planes so I appreciate the advances). So,most of my usage would be local and the plug-in varient of my Kia is up to 38 miles but would hardly bother me as I would keep the battery topped up. On the occasional long journey.I will be running on at a good return as the first 30-40miles are "free". My friends who run full EV have had very stressful moments. I don't think that elecric is necessaryly the answer unless the boffin in Cornwall has the answer (see Metro paper). He reckons he can make air ally battteries from scrap ally. To good to be true? April Fools joke? My friend has researched it a bit and it seems he has UK backers and has bought the "Austin" name and some premises. This,of course,would be a massiive gamechanger especially as the little pancake battery he holds in his hand supposedly -wait for it - gives a 1500 mile range!

I'm in two minds about plug in hybrids, a lot of owners end up not charging them daft as that sounds, then lug two power trains around to no benefit. They can also be very heavy, the Kia you talk about is one of the better examples in these respects. With a PHEV how you charge the battery can have a massive influnce on it's life and performance, stay within 20 - 80% charge and avoid rapid charging and you will get much more out of it long term, this is why the self charging hybrid batteries do so well. I haven't seen the battery from the boffin in Cornwall, I'm skeptical when someone makes a claim that impressive but it will be great if true. I agree with you that electric is not the answer by it's self but think it can be a large part of the answer, possibly hydrogen will make up another slice. Once we get to the stage where there are a lot of "used" automotive batteries around they are ideal for home storage, a car I worked on had a battery that would when new give up to 127 amps by the time that drops to 90 you have a sports car with the performance of a milk float, few houses draw anything like that, repacked to the size of a washing machine and they will run a house for decades before needing recycling, if the average house in the country (that's a big ask) could store electricity for ten days and the average car for three days we could profitably install more wind generation etc. and ride out most of the times of calm saving the country a fortune on imported gas.

 

[Ozi]

I think you are taking the 'zero emission' statement as a literal when what it actually means is 'no CO2 or NOX emissions from the exhaust' - which is actually pretty good.
Add to that the fact that the brakes don't wear like ICE vehicles because you rarely use them, so less particulate emissions and many less moving parts so less wear and tear.
But yes, you do get 'emissions' - the tyres on my EV wear (not as fast as on an ICE vehicle) and that produces particulates - but so little compared to an ICE I struggle when people try to justify not changing based on this sort of argument.

The big issue with emissions from EVs is the method of generating the power to build, use and recycle. all vehicles should be assess on full lifetime emissions.

I like the OP but considering what Piaggio offer with three wheels I think that would suggest the OP would not be classed as a motorbike in Europe?
I really liked the Twizzy but don't know why they didn't make it weather tight.
I may get a Honda Super Cub that they say does 180mpg, more realistically only 150mpg and just suit up. Having had bikes and cars of a very minimal nature I don't think getting hit by something bigger in one or other would turn out much different. Three wheels helps stay upright of course.
However common or not an EV fire is, putting it out is a big issue. A lithium/hydrogen hybrid as Hyundai are making, well, what could possibly go wrong

The impact issue is not as clear cut as people think, I was a crash test engineer for many years and have seen many small vehicles that do well against much heavier ones, there is a limit obviously but survival cells and good restraint systems can achieve a lot. Bikes well much as I have enjoyed them you don't ride one for the safety.

 

[Droogs]

The thing that gets me most is that the arguments put forward against switching are generally by people who have little to no real awareness as to what is in the pipeline over the next couple of years. Take a look at what is coming from China (deride them for politics etc but they are the tip of the spear of the ride that is the future). Take a look at what is now reaching pre-production in terms of batteries, technologies which have no cobalt and use common elements. Regarding batteries and cobalt- so what if what's available now has some, 90% of the naysayers seem oblivious to or ignore the fact that in order to make your ICE cars fuel for the year the fossil fuel industry uses 5 times as much cobalt to refine the petrol for each and every car and has done so for the last 50 years. Why do you think EV battery companies were able to find ready suppliers of cobalt in the first place.

BEV cars are, for the foreseeable future , the future of private personal transport whether you like it or not; of the top 7 auto makers in the world 5 have already closed their ICE R&D departments or switched them completely to EV R&D, Mazda being the exception. ICE based transport is killing me, you and your children and helping along with other industries that we need to drastically change to destroying the very biosphere we need in order to survive let alone thrive. The recalcitrance for change is driven by fear of change, laziness and for the main part selfishness. If, doing what is needed to ensure our children's survival let alone prosperity means that you have get of your backside to move around then so be it. If you can't afford to buy transport that uses this technology in order to get around then buy a bike or use public transport or hire a vehicle fit for the purpose you need when you need it and go without or find other ways to meet your needs.

I would love to have a BEV but as things are I wont be able to afford one for at least 5 years by going without other things in order to get one 2nd hand. I even have my beloved camper on a SORN for 6 months a year and only use it in spring summer. The rest of the time I use public transport or hire a car. It doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for the electric car nor blunt my willingness to accept and adopt the changes we need to make for all our sakes.
I'm writing this not to virtue signal but try and show others that we have to make changes to the way we live or we and our children along with huge numbers of the other beings we share this mud ball with wont be able to live at all

 

[hairy]

The impact issue is not as clear cut as people think,

Sitting in a moving Caterham next to an artic I can assure you it is

 

[hairy]

The thing that gets me most is that the arguments put forward against switching are generally by people who have little to no real awareness as to what is in the pipeline over the next couple of years. Take a look at what is coming from China (deride them for politics etc but they are the tip of the spear of the ride that is the future). Take a look at what is now reaching pre-production in terms of batteries, technologies which have no cobalt and use common elements. Regarding batteries and cobalt- so what if what's available now has some, 90% of the naysayers seem oblivious to or ignore the fact that in order to make your ICE cars fuel for the year the fossil fuel industry uses 5 times as much cobalt to refine the petrol for each and every car and has done so for the last 50 years. Why do you think EV battery companies were able to find ready suppliers of cobalt in the first place.

BEV cars are, for the foreseeable future , the future of private personal transport whether you like it or not; of the top 7 auto makers in the world 5 have already closed their ICE R&D departments or switched them completely to EV R&D, Mazda being the exception. ICE based transport is killing me, you and your children and helping along with other industries that we need to drastically change to destroying the very biosphere we need in order to survive let alone thrive. The recalcitrance for change is driven by fear of change, laziness and for the main part selfishness. If, doing what is needed to ensure our children's survival let alone prosperity means that you have get of your backside to move around then so be it. If you can't afford to buy transport that uses this technology in order to get around then buy a bike or use public transport or hire a vehicle fit for the purpose you need when you need it and go without or find other ways to meet your needs.

I would love to have a BEV but as things are I wont be able to afford one for at least 5 years by going without other things in order to get one 2nd hand. I even have my beloved camper on a SORN for 6 months a year and only use it in spring summer. The rest of the time I use public transport or hire a car. It doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for the electric car nor blunt my willingness to accept and adopt the changes we need to make for all our sakes.
I'm writing this not to virtue signal but try and show others that we have to make changes to the way we live or we and our children along with huge numbers of the other beings we share this mud ball with wont be able to live at all

" If you can't afford to buy transport that uses this technology in order to get around then buy a bike or use public transport or hire a vehicle" That would mean most of the rural countryside of the UK moving into cities and live where?


How many of the top 7 auto makers would have closed their ICE R&D departments if politicians hadn't effectively forced them to?

ICE is killing pretty much no-one once you get to a decent Euro emissions level. An EV may produce less pollution than an older ICE car where it is, but it is certainly causing issues where the power comes from (or not), and how today is child labour still in play for what the West sees as "our" salvation?

If it was an obvious cut and dried fact then opinionated argument wouldn't need to come into an EV vs ICE debate, politicians wouldn't need to coerce. I recently read EV battery costs have actually gone up. UK politicians who agreed to the future ban on new ICE sales have said the figures they were shown on how the EV cars to replace them will become affordable has been proven wanting, ie they were mislead when asked to implement the ICE ban.

How is it that removing the transport that allows me to live where I do (4x4 diesel) is seen as saving the planet, but those of us who are happy to eat avocados or blueberries from Peru carry on regardless?

If I spend tens of thousands on an EV then the world is saved. If I don't my children die Odd.