electric fences

[Trevanion]

You're missing the point SJB, all the other "humane" methods simply do not work, especially when we're talking many acres and not a 5ft x 5ft square of lawn! If there was a more effective way of dealing with the moles that didn't involve killing them I would be all ears. As Inspector said about the foxes, catching and relocating the moles would simply just make them someone else's problem down the line and then they end up getting rid of them with a trap.

There's a guy around here who makes a very good living purely trapping moles, £10 per mole with sometimes about 20 or so caught in a single day, sometimes more, sometimes less.

It's certainly better than dumping a few Phostoxin/Talunex tablets in the holes, which are indiscriminate and a slow, painful death.

Am I a vegan? Yes, I am.

Ah, I see now that there will not be any way to make you look at things with a reasonable mind. I always found Veganism a bit odd, if anything the pest control for arable crops kills more wildlife and animals in general than the meat industry, mole control included.

 

[Lons]

Roger, Trevanion Lons, if you value your precious lawns over the value of a/several moles lives, and are happy with the 'humane' way you kill them your priorities are way off in my opinion! (By the way there is no such thing as humanely killing something, it's a bit of an oxymoron to make yourself feel better)

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I don't have " precious lawn", far from it in fact it's full of moss and as long as it's green I'm happy. The moles are in my paddock which adjoins neighbouring fields and which have so many mole hills it looks like a kid with chicken pox. I keep them under control on my land as is my right as otherwise the little tractor sinks in the holes and it's not safe for the dogs. Only a couple of years ago one of the lambs in the field next door had to be put to sleep because it broke a leg allegedly caused by mole damage.

As I said I don't like killing anything, not even the rats I mentioned but they have to be controlled. Some of the animal rights campaigners have gone too far, people like Chris Packham who was more than a little instrumental in banning the control of magpies and crows which I see every year growing in numbers at the expense of the small birds who's chicks they viciously kill.

The link you posted after googling is laughable and unless you've tried it you really shouldn't be suggesting it as a viable alternative.

 

[Lons]

Killing anything, in anything other than an act of mercy, cant be considered humane.

Would I prefer it we were all vegans, yes I would. There are circumstances where it doesn't work, but we could all do "better".

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That's your choice Stuart and I for one respect that but I'm not, never will and am entitled to just as much respect for my differing view.

There are many things we could all list as preferable, honesty, tolerance, compassion, politeness etc. It isn't going to happen.

 

[SBJ]

Ah, I see now that there will not be any way to make you look at things with a reasonable mind.

If you think that through you'd realise what a ridiculous statement that is! It's because I have a reasonable mind that I've been able to look at what I consume, understand what the consequences are in terms of health, animal welfare and environmental impact and come to my own conclusions about my diet. I suspect you eat whatever you eat, because it's what you've always done, it's what you were brought up with and have never questioned.

I always found Veganism a bit odd, if anything the pest control for arable crops kills more wildlife and animals in general than the meat industry, mole control included.

I think it's a well established fact that we grow more crops to feed livestock than would be necessary if we didn't consume meat. Not to mention the impact on land, water, deforestation etc.

 

[RogerS]

Killing anything, in anything other than an act of mercy, cant be considered humane.

OK..I understand where you're coming from now although I still maintain that those so-called humane ways of trapping and then moving on moles, for example, is anything but humane. Ditto those 'humane' mousetraps.

There are circumstances where it doesn't work, .....

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Now I'm curious !

 

[Trevanion]

I think it's a well established fact that we grow more crops to feed livestock than would be necessary if we didn't consume meat. Not to mention the impact on land, water, deforestation etc.

Except for the fact that the food we grow to feed the livestock is mostly home-grown grass that the cows feed on when they're grazing but it's turned into silage, which when cut and re-grown produces more efficient and healthier ground which practically is carbon-offsetting itself.

 

[SBJ]

I don't have " precious lawn", far from it in fact it's full of moss and as long as it's green I'm happy. The moles are in my paddock which adjoins neighbouring fields and which have so many mole hills it looks like a kid with chicken pox. I keep them under control on my land as is my right as otherwise the little tractor sinks in the holes and it's not safe for the dogs. Only a couple of years ago one of the lambs in the field next door had to be put to sleep because it broke a leg allegedly caused by mole damage.

As I said I don't like killing anything, not even the rats I mentioned but they have to be controlled. Some of the animal rights campaigners have gone too far, people like Chris Packham who was more than a little instrumental in banning the control of magpies and crows which I see every year growing in numbers at the expense of the small birds who's chicks they viciously kill.

The link you posted after googling is laughable and unless you've tried it you really shouldn't be suggesting it as a viable alternative.

I'm sorry to hear that you might be having trouble with your little tractor :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm no expert in mole control, but I know that what you are doing isn't humane, but it is a choice you make and you see the value in killing moles rather than all other alternatives.

 

[RogerS]

.....Some of the animal rights campaigners have gone too far, people like Chris Packham who was more than a little instrumental in banning the control of magpies and crows which I see every year growing in numbers at the expense of the small birds who's chicks they viciously kill.

.....

Spot on.. Sometimes he talks sense like this week re over-population but most of the time he speaks rollocks. Especially re magpies and crows.

 

[SBJ]

Killing anything, in anything other than an act of mercy, cant be considered humane.

OK..I understand where you're coming from now although I still maintain that those so-called humane ways of trapping and then moving on moles, for example, is anything but humane. Ditto those 'humane' mousetraps.

There are circumstances where it doesn't work, .....

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Now I'm curious !

I wouldn't advocate the use of anything that wasn't humane - even if it did show up in the google search for humane ways to deal with moles!

Other circumstances would be where information is scarce (remote tribes in Africa, South America, Asia), where crops aren't available (extreme temperatures deserts, ice). Certainly in the western world I see no reason why we can't move to a majority plant based diet and in time wholly plant based. Nobody wears fur these days, I guess there was a time when that might have seemed like a ridiculous concept?

 

[Trevanion]

I'm no expert in mole control, but I know that what you are doing isn't humane, but it is a choice you make and you see the value in killing moles rather than all other alternatives.

If you're no expert why are you trying to lecture people on how they should do it when you have ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE in the matter? Again, I would love to see a single one of "all other alternatives" that actually works that you keep mentioning!

 

[SBJ]

I think it's a well established fact that we grow more crops to feed livestock than would be necessary if we didn't consume meat. Not to mention the impact on land, water, deforestation etc.

Except for the fact that the food we grow to feed the livestock is mostly home-grown grass that the cows feed on when they're grazing but it's turned into silage, which when cut and re-grown produces more efficient and healthier ground which practically is carbon-offsetting itself.

As an individual, perhaps, but that wasn't really the point being put forward.

 

[SBJ]

I'm no expert in mole control, but I know that what you are doing isn't humane, but it is a choice you make and you see the value in killing moles rather than all other alternatives.

If you're no expert why are you trying to lecture people on how they should do it when you have ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE in the matter? Again, I would love to see these "all other alternatives" you keep mentioning!

I haven't lectured anyone on HOW they should do it, only that what they are doing is inhumane. Would you agree with that? That it's inhumane?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I think you'll find that if you trap vermin alive it's illegal to let it go again.

 

[SBJ]

.....Some of the animal rights campaigners have gone too far, people like Chris Packham who was more than a little instrumental in banning the control of magpies and crows which I see every year growing in numbers at the expense of the small birds who's chicks they viciously kill.

.....

Spot on.. Sometimes he talks sense like this week re over-population but most of the time he speaks rollocks. Especially re magpies and crows.

I'm sure we could all pick out individuals that go too far, on both sides of the argument.

 

[Trevanion]

I haven't lectured anyone on HOW they should do it, only that what they are doing is inhumane. Would you agree with that? That it's inhumane?

Perhaps lecturing was the wrong word... You keep preaching that it's "inhumane" and there are "alternatives" but don't actually come up with anything that's a workable alternative!

I'd personally rather have my neck broken without knowing it was going to happen rather than die choking in the equivalent of a gas chamber or being spiked and dragged along the dirt by a plough for arable crops if I had the choice.

 

[sunnybob]

I NEVER argue, because people who are prepared to argue, are NOT prepared to change their minds, and I am talking about BOTH sides of the argument. So from that point of view, you are all crazy.

But from a purely factual aspect; In somerset I lived next door to a vermin hunter. He was paid by farmers to shoot deer, rabbits and pigeons (no moles that i ever saw). The farmers needed those animals dead to safeguard their crops, that carnivores, omnivores AND vegans all eat.
Do you remember jackie ballard, the great white hope of the Liberal party? She was the somerset MP, destined to become the next leader of the party. Her anti hunting conviction was so strong she went into exmoor and told the locals why she was happy to ban foxhunting. The locals counted fox hunting as their major source of income. Hotels, B&B's, stables gamekeepers, groundsmen, pubs and inns NEEDED those hunters to survive. I knew a lady whose sole income was catering for hunting parties.
Ballard was unable to comprehend why she lost her seat at the next election, and took herself off to an arabic country so she could wear a full burka.
Now all the deer are diseased and a major nuisance to the farmers because the hunt used to pay the farmers compensation for the crops the deer ate, and cull out the old animals.
The point is, at some point, good intentions HAVE to give way to common sense, and a "humane" method, is so much better than the alternative. Are you old enough to remember myxomatosis? an artificial method of culling rabbits? I used to see those poor diseased and deformed animals, and after that, yes, a shotgun blast is most definitely "humane"

 

[Phil Pascoe]

My uncle joined the Navy in the mid fifties and his first job was clubbing rabbits to death on Dartmoor.

 

[John Brown]

Now about these electric fences...

 

[Lons]

As a vegan you'll be delighted that I also fish for trout. :lol: Not concerned about the tractor btw more concerned with being thrown off it and sustaining injury!

It's a pointless argument anyway, humans are an omnivore species who can live perfectly healthily on a balanced diet and that includes meat, fish, milk, eggs and honey and as such I'm one of those who'll never agree with you even though you're perfectly entitled to your convictions.

As an aside, my neighbours 2 doors away are vegans, both in their eighties now and a couple of years ago had a mouse infestation not helped by the massive amount of seed they put out for the birds.
He bought some live traps and caught more than 30 in a week, he had missed a trap btw which had 3 mice in it and 2 of them had eaten the third. ( humane? :roll: ). Over that time he released them at the bottom of the garden 60 yards away bordering a field but the numbers he caught didn't significantly diminish so I said as a joke the little ba**ards were homing mice.
He painted the legs of some of them with Tippex and low and behold caught 2 of them a second time - go figure. :lol:

He changed his mind 6 months later when they chewed through a pipe on his washing machine and caused a lot of water damage after which he called in a pest control company.

 

[SBJ]

I NEVER argue, because people who are prepared to argue, are NOT prepared to change their minds, and I am talking about BOTH sides of the argument. So from that point of view, you are all crazy.

I think you'll find that I'm Vegan BECAUSE I was prepared to change my mind. I'd imagine that applies to most vegans who have been brought up culturally to eat meat.

To quickly address some of your other points, fox hunting is obviously a bad thing, the fact that some people have exploited it for financial gain is no reason not to ban it.

Working for a sustainable environment is a good thing, land management needs to be done in a way that is respectful to wild life and land owners.

When I see a fisherman it's the same to me as one of the trophy hunters that you occasionally see in the news having shot a lion or giraffe.

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