Effectiveness of leather strops (and polishing compounds)

[Kalimna]

Jacob - sorry to be the geological era pedant here, but it is highly unlikely that stropping was around in the paleolithic. Twas only stone tools then - not sure how you would go about stropping a flint axe.
On another point, your arkansas stone may be 'surgical' grade, but it will produce an edge not nearly fine enough for a surgical tool in the modern era. What may have been appropriate and acceptable in antiquity (surgical or woodwork - the line blurs somewhat!) has now been superseded by modern techniques (laser cut for scalpel blades, I think), if it was good enough a couple of hundred years ago, that is only because there was nothing better at the time.
I do appreciate your experience, and pragmatic approach to woodworking, but it really would be nice and make a pleasant change if you appreciated that yours isnt the only acceptable way of doing things, and some folk have different reasons for doing woodwork the way they do.

A maxim (or is that axiom?) I use at work - 'If there truly was only one good way of doing things, then everyone would be doing it without exception'.

Cheers,
Adam

 

[Jacob]

Jacob - sorry to be the geological era pedant here, but it is highly unlikely that stropping was around in the paleolithic. Twas only stone tools then - not sure how you would go about stropping a flint axe.

Polished stone axes would most likely have been done with abrasives on leather as both were available and it wouldn't have taken much to work out the technique

...
I do appreciate your experience, and pragmatic approach to woodworking, but it really would be nice and make a pleasant change if you appreciated that yours isnt the only acceptable way of doing things, and some folk have different reasons for doing woodwork the way they do......

The thing is it took me some time to get to rounded bevel and very quick honing/sharpening and I thought it would be churlish to keep it to myself. I would say the same to you; "it really would be nice and make a pleasant change if you appreciated that yours isnt the only acceptable way of doing things".
Also I am intrigued by the rounded bevel thing and the fact that so many people don't get it - there's a bit of a sociological phenomenon going on here - could be somebody's thesis?
Also my name was mentioned in this thread, having kept out of it at first. If people comment on what I do, I may well return the compliment!

 

[Paul Chapman]

Jacob - sorry to be the geological era pedant here, but it is highly unlikely that stropping was around in the paleolithic. Twas only stone tools then - not sure how you would go about stropping a flint axe.

Polished stone axes would most likely have been done with abrasives on leather as both were available and it wouldn't have taken much to work out the technique

And then some bloke invented the wheel and they thought: 'Ah, now we can build a honing guide' :idea: :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[bugbear]

In the 18th and 19th centuries, when the only sharpening stones readily available were the likes of Turkey, Charnley Forest and Welsh Slate, stropping on dressed leather (which was fairly cheaply and easily available) was a realistic way of quickly refining an edge. (I've never tried this, but I think you can strop an edge on the palm of your hand; seem to remember this written in one of Charles Hayward's many books.) Now that the technology of sharpening has developed, it would be surprising if no better method of achieving a very fine edge than stropping had been developed. However, that doesn't mean that stropping is dead - it quite plainly worked very well for many craftsmen over several generations, and much fine work was done by them to prove the point; so it will still work just as well.

Absolutely - the historical use of stropping exists in a context where Arkansas, let alone waterstones hadn't been introduced. Even when Ark stones were available they were hugely more expensive than a strop.

And for carvers, a slightly yielding strop is ideal for the many curved gouge edges involved.

BugBear

Reality check - Arkansas stone was introduced in the paleozoic era, stropping (and sharpening) has been going on since the paleolithic.

I was talking about its introduction into the UK, imported from the USA, starting in the 1880s. I assume you knew this, and missed the point deliberately for reasons of your own. Please do TRY and be more constructive in discussions; at the moment your presence in a thread almost inevitably turns it into a cr*p fest.

BugBear

(I wonder what they were using "useless" surgically sharp edges for in the paleozoic - were they crazy sharpening even then?)

 

[Kalimna]

Jacob - i not a paleohistorian, but Im pretty sure stone axes were chipped (like flint), not honed. And your reflection of my comment back upon myself is poor - I do appreciate your way of working (as stated in my post), but I happen to prefer honing guides etc. So, whilst you have a vastly greater amount of experience than I do (in life as well as woodworking no doubt), you dont appear to have mastered the art of checking your facts regarding anothers opinion before commenting upon them.

Cheers,
Adam

 

[Jacob]

...........

I don't strop my carving tools because it makes them sharper (it might, but after a couple of minutes use who can tell?). I do it because it polishes the bevel and makes them less grippy, easier to push through the wood. And because Chris Pye tells me to :wink:

In short - stropping makes my paring tools seem sharper because they're polished. And it removes the wire edge. I think.

St.John

I think St. J's comment above is the most interesting thing in this thread. Polishing (stropping) the edge actually reduces friction in the vicinity of the edge where it is being forced against the material. This is why it helps and gives the impression of increased sharpness, whatever the actual effect on the edge itself.
It's obvious with hindsight! Well done St J!

In other words all the emphasis in earlier posts on the effect on the edge has entirely missed the point (no pun intended) - it's the surface immediately behind the edge which needs the strop.

You may not agree with this but stick with it: It follows that a perfect polished surface is not required - but merely that the relatively rough surface (not the edge) left by the previous medium (stone etc) , should have it's sharpness taken off to reduce friction. So even a little strop is effective.

So carry on stropping, we knew it worked, we now know why it works.

I'm really pleased with that conclusion as I've often felt a bit unsure of stropping, and left it out. I won't in future.

PS I expect the usual sequence of feeble sarcasm and mild abuse to follow this post - but chaps, don't waste you time, I really could not care less! :lol: :lol:

 

[DTR]

Or a 20 degree back bevel...

20 degree? I thought the "usual" back bevel was at 10 degrees? I was just thinking about this today as I am having some difficulty with a hardwood of unknown origin (ID thread to come later). Apologies for going off topic, if the current discussion can be considered on topic.

 

[David C]

Dave,

Anything between 10 degrees and 25 degrees works for me.

The harder and nastier the timber, the steeper I go.

David Charlesworth

 

[Karl]

No need to stop at 10/20/25 degrees. See here.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Paul Chapman]

No need to stop at 10/20/25 degrees. See here.

Karl,

Did you plane that table top with the modified blade? If so, how did it go?

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Karl]

All being well i'll be doing it tomorrow Paul. I'll post an update.

Cheers

Karl

 

[DTR]

Thanks for the tips

 

[Corneel]

It's a good theory. Of course we don't really KNOW if that is the only advantage. When you use a somewhat coarser stone for your final honing, like an Arkansas, then the extra sharpness of the edge coulde be an advantage too.

I am meaning to get a strop for eons now, but never get round to it. My 8000 waterstone seems fine enough.

...........

I don't strop my carving tools because it makes them sharper (it might, but after a couple of minutes use who can tell?). I do it because it polishes the bevel and makes them less grippy, easier to push through the wood. And because Chris Pye tells me to :wink:

In short - stropping makes my paring tools seem sharper because they're polished. And it removes the wire edge. I think.

St.John

I think St. J's comment above is the most interesting thing in this thread. Polishing (stropping) the edge actually reduces friction in the vicinity of the edge where it is being forced against the material. This is why it helps and gives the impression of increased sharpness, whatever the actual effect on the edge itself.
It's obvious with hindsight! Well done St J!

In other words all the emphasis in earlier posts on the effect on the edge has entirely missed the point (no pun intended) - it's the surface immediately behind the edge which needs the strop.

You may not agree with this but stick with it: It follows that a perfect polished surface is not required - but merely that the relatively rough surface (not the edge) left by the previous medium (stone etc) , should have it's sharpness taken off to reduce friction. So even a little strop is effective.

So carry on stropping, we knew it worked, we now know why it works.

I'm really pleased with that conclusion as I've often felt a bit unsure of stropping, and left it out. I won't in future.

PS I expect the usual sequence of feeble sarcasm and mild abuse to follow this post - but chaps, don't waste you time, I really could not care less! :lol: :lol:

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I am meaning to get a strop for eons now, but never get round to it. My 8000 waterstone seems fine enough.

The point is made that you do not need to strop if you have an 8000 waterstone.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[bugbear]

I am meaning to get a strop for eons now, but never get round to it. My 8000 waterstone seems fine enough.

The point is made that you do not need to strop if you have an 8000 waterstone.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Historical/contextual question: does anyone (happen to) know if the Japanese tradition used strops for any purpose? I've never heard of it, but my reference material is primarily UK, North European and American.

BugBear

 

[Harbo]

Never heard of it used too - even for knife sharpening?

Rod

 

[custard]

...........

I don't strop my carving tools because it makes them sharper (it might, but after a couple of minutes use who can tell?). I do it because it polishes the bevel and makes them less grippy, easier to push through the wood. And because Chris Pye tells me to :wink:

In short - stropping makes my paring tools seem sharper because they're polished. And it removes the wire edge. I think.

St.John

I think St. J's comment above is the most interesting thing in this thread. Polishing (stropping) the edge actually reduces friction in the vicinity of the edge where it is being forced against the material. This is why it helps and gives the impression of increased sharpness, whatever the actual effect on the edge itself.
It's obvious with hindsight! Well done St J!

In other words all the emphasis in earlier posts on the effect on the edge has entirely missed the point (no pun intended) - it's the surface immediately behind the edge which needs the strop.

You may not agree with this but stick with it: It follows that a perfect polished surface is not required - but merely that the relatively rough surface (not the edge) left by the previous medium (stone etc) , should have it's sharpness taken off to reduce friction. So even a little strop is effective.

So carry on stropping, we knew it worked, we now know why it works.

I'm really pleased with that conclusion as I've often felt a bit unsure of stropping, and left it out. I won't in future.

PS I expect the usual sequence of feeble sarcasm and mild abuse to follow this post - but chaps, don't waste you time, I really could not care less! :lol: :lol:

Very interesting point.

Also the Chris Pye style of stropping (and sharpening) is to rotate the carving gouge sideways along the oil stone or strop. He also strops inside the arc of the gouge using a really thick piece of leather folded over, which means it's an automatic fit to the internal radius of the gouge.

 

[Jacob]

...........

I don't strop my carving tools because it makes them sharper (it might, but after a couple of minutes use who can tell?). I do it because it polishes the bevel and makes them less grippy, easier to push through the wood. And because Chris Pye tells me to :wink:

In short - stropping makes my paring tools seem sharper because they're polished. And it removes the wire edge. I think.

St.John

I think St. J's comment above is the most interesting thing in this thread. Polishing (stropping) the edge actually reduces friction in the vicinity of the edge where it is being forced against the material. This is why it helps and gives the impression of increased sharpness, whatever the actual effect on the edge itself.
It's obvious with hindsight! Well done St J!

In other words all the emphasis in earlier posts on the effect on the edge has entirely missed the point (no pun intended) - it's the surface immediately behind the edge which needs the strop.

You may not agree with this but stick with it: It follows that a perfect polished surface is not required - but merely that the relatively rough surface (not the edge) left by the previous medium (stone etc) , should have it's sharpness taken off to reduce friction. So even a little strop is effective.

So carry on stropping, we knew it worked, we now know why it works.

I'm really pleased with that conclusion as I've often felt a bit unsure of stropping, and left it out. I won't in future.

.....................................

I've changed my mind about the bit in bold - pressure around a chisel or plane blade edge is going to be a lot higher than on a plane sole, so although "taking the sharpness off" a freshly ground plane sole is undoubtedly effective maybe the cutting edges really do need more polishing - just a few mm up the bevel and the face where the timber or the shavings are going to be pressing hard (i.e. not the whole face!).

Back to the OP and Brent Beach: BB starts his investigation with the observation "Overview. People often report better results after stropping their tools."
Fair enough, this is true, we do.
But BB then goes on to completely ignore this - at no point does he actually apply a stropped or un-stropped chisel to a piece of wood and compare/contrast the outcome. His conclusions are completely meaningless.

But anyway we now know why to strop - it's to polish the vicinity of the edge to make the cutting action easier. Incidentally this is quite different from the barber's strop of a razor - chisels and plane blades are very crude 25/30º wedges compared to the fine edge of a razor.
It also makes sense that carvers know this - they use chisels/gouges to a much greater extent than other woodworkers.

 

[Corneel]

Like I said, good theory. Now, of course, in a good scientific environment like an internet forum, we need to test the theory. How would you test your theory?

My advice: Hone some plane irons on a fine India stone. Then do your regular stropping. Finally hone again a tiny microbevel with the India stone. Then proceed to planning and measure resistance, watch the shavings, look at the planed surface, test the longevity of the edge etc etc. And compare to the same irons stropped without the extra hone.

Personally I think it is not a black and white thing. I think stropping does something for the edge AND the bevel and face surface. Of course I don't really know because I haven't yet ever stropped anything other then swiping the iron a bit on my jeans.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Like I said, good theory. Now, of course, in a good scientific environment like an internet forum, we need to test the theory. How would you test your theory?

My advice: Hone some plane irons on a fine India stone. Then do your regular stropping. Finally hone again a tiny microbevel with the India stone. Then proceed to planning and measure resistance, watch the shavings, look at the planed surface, test the longevity of the edge etc etc. And compare to the same irons stropped without the extra hone.

Personally I think it is not a black and white thing. I think stropping does something for the edge AND the bevel and face surface. Of course I don't really know because I haven't yet ever stropped anything other then swiping the iron a bit on my jeans.

Careful, Corneel! We could end up with a long and involved discussion about which brand of jeans is best for stropping, and whether or not the jeans should be impregnated with jeweller's rouge, diamond dust or workshop floor-sweepings!