Edge jointing without a cambered blade.

[Shady]

Perhaps the real problem for me lies between my ears--I still can't understand why using a straight edged-plane to produce a square, straight edge is less efficient or not faster than using a cambered blade.

Funnily enough, this was my reaction to David's stuff when I first read it. However, at the risk of being corrected by him, should he 'graze' this thread, I spent some time mucking around with straight edges, cambered edges, and jointer fences:

I had a sudden moment of revelation when I realised that I don't actually think David claims that for his technique; it's not about efficiency or speed, it's just that he takes the view that, essentially, with a straight edge and no fence, you need black magic - or years and years of practice - to guarantee a 90 degree and straight edge - there is effectively no way, other than 'feel', to assess whether or not you are producing a right angled edge with respect to the face of the board...

He has, in his usual painstaking way, identified a method that allows you to assess the degree of '90-degreeness' unemotionally, and correct it, in a progressive and (relatively) simple way. Not fast, but when I'm after 90 degrees and not match planing, it ends up being fastest (and cheapest) for me, because I don't ruin 15 pieces of stock trying to generate an accurate cut...

Does any of that make sense? I'm writing with a 'cheer up depressed partner' half a bottle of champagne down my neck... :wink:

(edit:

The match planing method only works for glue laminations

precisely Paul - and welcome to the boards!)

 

[Philly]

Shady
Some good points-nice one! Especially after a few :wink:
Paul
Welcome to the forum!
Cheers
Philly

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Paul

Welcome to the forum.

Cheers
Neil

 

[Jasper Homminga]

Paul,

Welcome
Though, I believe I've seen your name before (which does not make you any less welcome of course).

I will admit I am trying to wean myself off the cambered blade though

I would love to know why you don't like the cambered blade method? What will you use instead?

Jasper

 

[Paul Kierstead]

I will admit I am trying to wean myself off the cambered blade though

I would love to know why you don't like the cambered blade method? What will you use instead?

Well, "don't like" isn't really the issue. I like the cambered blade method, but it has some limitations, the biggest being that you have to have a somewhat aggressively cambered blade (a fuzzy term I know, but you know, more cambered the it might be otherwise). Now lots of time you want to work with smaller pieces of wood and hence smaller planes, possibly ones without a cambered blade. Or perhaps I want to use my largest plane, which also has a straight blade. Or, actually the most common scenario: I often use my jack to knock off the bandsaw marks (or even rip-saw) or otherwise 'rough in' the edge. I would really like to be able to get this as close to square as possible 'by instinct', which of course really means developing a sense of square. So, every time I rought in an edge, I practice trying to get it very square without repeatedly checking the edge or using any advantage of the camber in my jack. In the *long* run, I think this will work out better, but I still like the cambered blade along the way since I think it will take quite a bit of time to develop a really solid sense of square, although I can notice it improving.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

There are all sorts of ways of getting edge joints prepared ready for gluing. Cambered or curved blades work for some. I've used the method effectively. Others prefer a straight blade and match planing.

However, no-one has mentioned simply tilting the plane over to square an edge. The blade of my try plane is straight. I usually prepare edges by doing one edge at a time, but I'll match plane if the mood takes me.

If an edge is out of square I tilt the plane to take off the high side. Even if the edge is in winding you can tilt the plane first one way and then the other as you go. It's remarkable how highly tuned you become at sensing what is square to a face and what isn't with time and practise. With time and practise it's perfectly feasible to tilt a plane one way and then another by as little as a 1/4º or 1/2º either way.

Another trick that can be used to take off the high side of an edge is to shift the plane across so that the plane blade only spans about half of the width of the edge. The left or right corner of the cutting edge of the blade runs roughly down the middle of the board edge width. Get this high side of the boards edge at a right angle to the face and follow up with a full width shaving or two.

It's also possible to slightly bend a metal plane in the length as you use it which can be useful because it slightly increases or decreases the cut you make. Grip the handles at the front and back firmly and twist your wrists towards each other to either make the sole slightly convex or concave. For instance, if it's my intention to take a slightly deeper cut in the middle of a long edge I start the cut as normal by simply moving the plane forward. As the plane progresses I'll twist the top of my hands gripping the handles firmly towards each to bend the sole convex. As I move towards the end of the cut I relax the twisting and let the plane sole straighten out. Slainte.

 

[Philly]

"It's also possible to slightly bend a metal plane in the length as you use it"-Crikey, Richard!! :shock:
I'm sure you're right but it's not for me.
FOr me, the main advantage of the cambered blade is NOT having to be super skilled. As I am only a hobby woodworker I don't get the practise to keep my "skills" honed. Otherwise a straight blade would do me good! :lol:
Cheers
Philly

 

[Chris Knight]

Richard,
I think tilting was the first method I tried but I could never get it right doing it that way. It probably amounts to the same thing but an alternative that does work for me is to hang the rear end of the plane off the work by skewing it enough and letting the weight of the plane do the tilting itself so that it takes a thicker shaving from the side nearest the back of the plane. However, this shortens the effective sole length and there is a danger of not leaving a straight edge if too short.

I have never heard of twisting the plane, the mind boggles! (I mean how do you avoid permanent damage?? :lol: )

 

[MikeW]

One can also just use that little lever to cant the plane blade to take a slightly thicker shaving for a pass or two... :lol:

Take care, Mike

 

[Philly]

But that doesn't help with an edge in wind, Mike. :wink:
Philly

 

[MikeW]

But that doesn't help with an edge in wind, Mike.

In wind, one just pushes that little lever so the blade has an even reveal/square to the sole :wink:

Now, out of wind in various spots, and used locally, it's no different in practice--ok, it's similar--to using a cambered blade :lol:

Out of wind evenly, well, one just takes a pass or two down the full length with that lever revealing a bit more blade on the high side and then the little lever is adjusted again for an even cut... :shock:

This assumes, of course, one's plane has the little lever. On woodies, just a tap or two to against the side of the blade to tilt, a tap or two to even it back up.

All this assumes that either we are cutting boards without square edges, or cut them unsquare; using rough wood; or maybe even boards dimensioned by someone else and they are unsquare for whatever reason. I usually have rough sawn. So when I dimension my boards, the last part of the process is trimming to width [and length]. I find making the cut square to begin with only leaves saw marks to remove as the edge is already square to the face...

Take care, Mike

 

[Jake]

You need a LN Third Hand, Philly.

 

[Paul Chapman]

This is producing some interesting techniques

The other issue I have with the "Planecraft" technique (ie straight blade and plane both boards together) as opposed to the "Charlesworth" technique (cambered blade, plane boards individually and hollow in the length) is that we are preparing two boards for gluing together.

In the days when "Planecraft" was written, woodworkers tended to use hide glue and rubbed joints (with or without sash cramps). It was therefore important that both boards were flat at their joining edges.

It seems to me that the "Planecraft" technique achieves this.

The "Charlesworth" technique of using a cambered blade and deliberately planing the boards hollow introduces hollowness in the length and across the edges. It seems to me that this then requires the use of cramps not only to hold the work while the glue dries but also to compensate for hollowness in the length and across the edges of the boards.

I have no problems with any of this, because it clearly works successfully for many people. However, as it seems to go against everything that I was taught and what seems to me to be logical, I have difficulty in seeing the logic in the cambered blade, one board at a time and plane hollow in the length approach.

Maybe I'll change my mind when I've seen DC's DVD :?

Paul

 

[Philly]

Mike
Sorry, should of been more explicit. When the edge is in wind in varying amounts, in different parts of the edge. As you say, a tweak of the blade adjuster and job done. :wink:
Some days I just can't edge joint boards to my satisfaction. Other days I don't have to work at it. Sounds like my golf game........ :lol: :roll:
Jake
Have checked on the Lie-Nielsen website-the "third hand" is still out of stock. Thinking of getting one in rosewood and bronze :wink:
Cheers
Philly

 

[Anonymous]

I've always always used a try plane (cambered edge) to try and true edges and a jointer (straight blade) to joint the edge for glue up. That probably isn't necessary except for rubbed joints but it is what I'm used to. :lol: I usually match plane unless the combined thickness of the two pieces is wider than my jointer blade.
When I got my C&W try plane, the blade was sharpened straight across. I was working on some 3' long boards and tried to edge joint them with the C&W. I couldn't get the wind out with the straight blade. I used a #5 with a cambered bladed to square the edge and plane a small hollow in the center and then took passes with the C&W until I got a full length shaving. The resulting joint was very good.
To keep boards together for match planing, I put the jointed edges down on the bench to align them and then clamp the boards together. If clamps would be in the way, I sometimes use a small brad with the head cut as an alignment pin on each end (the face sides go out so the small hole is normally not important).

 

[Philly]

Makes a lot of sense-thanks Roger!
Philly

 

[MikeW]

Mike
Sorry, should of been more explicit. When the edge is in wind in varying amounts, in different parts of the edge. As you say, a tweak of the blade adjuster and job done. :wink:
Some days I just can't edge joint boards to my satisfaction. Other days I don't have to work at it. Sounds like my golf game........ :lol: :roll:

I think we have a failure to communicate <g>.
I'll try to clarify myself and then let this thread go.

An in wind board [specifaclly a board's edge here] cannot have wind in varying amounts. It's either in or out of wind, even if that in wind state is out of square to the face [assuming one wants it square to the face]. It can have high spots which the surface of is in wind to the remainder of the board.

A board with the edge out of wind edge would have varying amounts of out-of-squareness [i.e. bevel] of itself to the [hopefully in wind] face. Assuming here that one wants it square to the face.

So. An adjustment of the lateral adjusting lever to remove an in wind but out of square edge in order to make it square to the face is simply one or more passes with the lateral adjustment lever taking the high side of the edge. Full passes thus adjusted.

Locally, the assumption is the board's edge is in the main or at least partially in wind to itself and perhaps square to the face [but not necessarily so] and an adjustment of the lateral adjustment lever allows one to bring the out of wind local areas in wind to the remainder of the edge. At which point, the edge still may not be square to the face. If the edge is now in wind, but not square to the face [or the beveled state one desires] the lateral adjustment lever is again moved to allow full length shavings.

After one full width, full length shaving and the board is now square to the face--stop. Done.

If it is in wind and out of square [and it is desired to be thus], one can leave the lateral adjustment lever to remove more high-side shaving and check for square with each pass or two, or make a further adjustment to the lateral adjustment lever to take more/less off as one approaches square. Once square, the lateral adjustment lever is set to square the blade to the plane and another pass or whatever is taken.

As well, merely tilting a plane as mentioned works, too. I also use this method, though less than using the lateral adjustment lever.

Now, users of a cambered edge may see the movement of the lateral adjusting lever as a nuisance in order to achieve what one can accomplish with a cambered blade by simply making on-the-fly adjustment of the position of the plane itself on the board's edge.

May be true. I cannot fully get the hang of it. I have varying results. But I can nearly always true a board without muss or fuss the way above. On those off days I have, it takes but a minute or two to throw the #386 on in order to use it. Takes me longer to refill my coffee cup and take a sip.

Take care, Mike

 

[Alf]

To keep boards together for match planing, I put the jointed edges down on the bench to align them and then clamp the boards together.

But you need boards of similar width for that technique. :?

Paul (both of them I think!), I have a feeling you may be imaging a considerably greater camber than is actually the case. :-k

Cheers, Alf

 

[Paul Kierstead]

To keep boards together for match planing, I put the jointed edges down on the bench to align them and then clamp the boards together.

But you need boards of similar width for that technique. :?

Well, I put the edges which are to be planed down and then flip. Of course, with boards over a 3 or 4 feet long that doesn't work so well.

Paul (both of them I think!), I have a feeling you may be imaging a considerably greater camber than is actually the case. :-k

I use about 4 thou, as per Gorman's suggestion (http://www.amgron.clara.net/planingpoints/edgeplaning/squareedgeindex.htm)

It works well. But still, when the boards allow it, match planing is *really* quick and easy. I would add mostly foolproof, but will also admit that the first few times it didn't come out quite right and needed repeat tries. Now, I very very rarely need a repeat try; put togather, plane, fits first time. I did five panels a couple of weeks ago with hide glue, rubbed only this way. I have no idea what I do different now then when I started doing it, just got a bit of a knack for it I think.

But one thing that tends to drive me crazy about forums is the dogma of the one best way (or worse, tool, or worse um, n/m) , so I am certainly not going to tell you it is the best, only that it is fast'n'easy, but possibly not more so then other methods. And doesn't work very well if the pieces are 1-1/2" thick.....

 

[Shady]

But one thing that tends to drive me crazy about forums is the dogma of the one best way (or worse, tool, or worse um, n/m) , so I am certainly not going to tell you it is the best, only that it is fast'n'easy, but possibly not more so then other methods.

Hang on, hang on - we don't do common-sense realism around here: get on your soap-box and DICTATE MY WAY!!!! :wink: You'll never enjoy the forums if you don't get dogmatic - and that's a fact....