Edge joining

[Anonymous]

Hello All

I have just picked up some lovely Olive Ash to make a large dining table. The problem I have is that each of the 2 pieces for the main surface are quite large and very heavy (2500 x 500 x 50 mm each). They are therefore too heavy to go on my planer, which would get me a nice straight, square edge ready to glue them together.

I have an electric hand plane (Makita 1902) and wondered if anyone had any thoughts on how I should square up the 2 edges. I suspect that although I could get quite a square edge, I'll not be able to get both edges the same and therefore be left with gaps etc. when I come to glue them up. Should I be considering some long hand plane? Any thoughts on how I could use my P/T to do it?

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Philly]

Hi Mink
Try snapping a chalk line along the edge to give you an idea how straight (or not) the timber is. That will at least give you a realistic picture on where you have to remove timber.
Hope this helps, (and good luck!!)
Philly

 

[frank]

mink have you got a decent blade in your table saw 60 or 80 tooth that should cut it square .and leave a smooth edge for joining .

 

[johnelliott]

Don't think of trying to cut a jointable edge with a saw unless you have a way of ensuring that the blade will cut a dead straight line. A Festool saw and guide system can be used for this job and will give a good result.

My solution to your problem would be to saw the wood into narrower strips which can be edge planed on your jointer, then re-join them. Alternatively I would consider table designs which didn't require the boards to be joined

John

 

[Alf]

#7 jointer and a crash course in how to use it. It's a big ask as a first hand jointing experience though. :-k

Cheers, Alf

 

[Gill]

#7 jointer and a crash course in how to use it. It's a big ask as a first hand jointing experience though. :-k

Cheers, Alf

At the risk of destroying my carefully crafted image and sounding like a proper woodworker, that's the way I've prepared large pieces of timber in the past too, and it works. If the plane's properly set up, it should be straight forward.

Gill

 

[Anonymous]

All

Thanks for the suggestions so far.
I suspected the 'plane' suggestion would arise. It's quite an expensive way to go though (just had a browse about and it's around £115 new!).

A neighbour has suggested clamping the 2 pieces together as they will be finally joined. Then saw through the joint - thereby removing wood from the parts that touch, while not removing any from the gaps. Once a full length has been sawn, they are reclamped and re-sawn. In this way the parts should get to a point where there is no gap and the joint should then be a perfect fit.

Has anyone tried this technique before? It sounds plausible but ......

I didn't want to rip the larger slabs into smaller ones as the patterns in the wood would be ruined.
I'm also not sure I could properly support the weight on my table saw if I were to try and get the edges square that way.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts so far. Any more suggestions are welcome.

 

[jasonB]

Mink, you could try your method but use a router with 50x12.7mm bit, this will give a better finish than a hand held circular saw.

Jason

 

[Gill]

Hi MiNK

Your neighbour's suggestion might work but you'd still need to plane the wood after to get rid of the tooth marks.

The only other option I can think of would be to construct a long fence for a hand-held router and adhere a very thin strip of wood (spray mount a veneer?) to one end of the fence. Then, using a long straight cutting bit that's level with the raised part of the fence, you could plane the edge.

Mind, I've never tried this technique and I'm sure I wouldn't want to practice on timber 50mm thick!

Gill

 

[MikeW]

All
Thanks for the suggestions so far.
I suspected the 'plane' suggestion would arise. It's quite an expensive way to go though (just had a browse about and it's around £115 new!)..

Hi MiNK,

Of course "expensive" is relative to the cost of possibly ruining the timber itself. And a plane is obviously usable in the future. That said...

A neighbour has suggested clamping the 2 pieces together as they will be finally joined. Then saw through the joint - thereby removing wood from the parts that touch, while not removing any from the gaps. Once a full length has been sawn, they are reclamped and re-sawn. In this way the parts should get to a point where there is no gap and the joint should then be a perfect fit.

Has anyone tried this technique before? It sounds plausible but ......

This is a dangerous practice. One cannot clamp two pieces together and saw between them. The result will be that the pieces will pinch together and can cause a moderate to severe kick-back.

A better result is to use a quality portable saw and a straight-edge guide such as John suggested. However, the cut will still need either jointed by machine or hand in order to produce an acceptable glue joint.

Also, Jason and Gill's suggestion of a guide and a router is an excellent one. But, you may still need to adjust the fit via hand methods.

I didn't want to rip the larger slabs into smaller ones as the patterns in the wood would be ruined.
I'm also not sure I could properly support the weight on my table saw if I were to try and get the edges square that way.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts so far. Any more suggestions are welcome.

Ripping the pieces into managable widths has been done since, well, about forever. It does not necessarily mean the pattern will be destroyed. You (probably) will need to adjust the fit by moving the pieces a little in order to rematch, so this needs to be done before cutting to final length.

I am working on a bubinga display case currently where I had need to rip the thick stock in half in order to resaw on the BS to produce matching top and bottoms to the case. This produced 4 pieces after resawing that in turn needed to be jointed and reglued into the top/bottom respectively.

Neither the client nor myself can find the joints in either top or the bottom slabs. It can be done.

One thing you don't mention, is the dimensions of the table top and the equipment you do have. This would be helpful for the forum in suggesting ideas for you.

 

[johnelliott]

I've been thinking about this some more-
The router against straight edge technique (and indeed the saw/saw guide) technique will only produce a good result if the surface of the boards is reasonably flat. If it isn't then the tool may tip producing an edge which is not 90 degrees and therefore NVG for jointing purposes
I assume from the comment about the cost of a hand plane that you don't have a planer/thicknesser that will take a 500mm wide board, and that therefore the boards are not flat. If that is the case then no joining technique is going to produce a satisfactory result unless you are prepared to rip the boards to a width and weight that your P/T will handle

John

 

[Alf]

I suspected the 'plane' suggestion would arise. It's quite an expensive way to go though (just had a browse about and it's around £115 new!).

Not compared to a Festool... Also only the terminally insane buy a "new" plane for £115. Either get an old one for considerably less, or a decent modern one for considerably more. :wink: For old ones try the 'Bay or the various dealers whose contact details can be found on my website. A brief look round found an overpriced, but oh-so-nice, #6 here for instance. Or maybe this one, which would do an adequate job. A #7 would be better; I drew a blank on pretty pictures, but there is a Ray Iles reground #7 for £70 as an option.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

All

While speaking with Mrs MiNK last night, she didn't seem too phased when I suggested I may have to purchase some extra tools to do the table. :shock:

My P/T is capable of 10" width and so I can't get the large pieces flat to allow either sawing or routing the edge. When I have the pieces joined together I was looking at sanding it smooth - didn't want a mirror flat surface.

So having reviewed all your suggestions etc. I think I may look for a hand plane. Longer term, which will be the most useful - #6 or #7? Any particular brand I should consider (or steer clear of)? I will be looking for a second hand one ideally.

 

[MikeW]

MiNK,

The link is for a thread where a frame that the router rides upon and is used to flatten boards. If you have a router, it may be worth looking into.

http://forums.ukworkshop.co.uk/view...rder=asc&highlight=router+flatten+top&start=0

As for a plane, I would suggest the Lee Valley BU Jack with a high angle blade in addition to the regular blade.

It's here.

 

[Shady]

Mink: for this sort of task, the number 7 would be better: it has a wider blade (metal bench planes have 2 'standard' blade widths - smaller for evrything up to a number 6, and then wider for the 7 & 8 ). It is specifically designed for the task at hand - 7 or 8 is actually called a 'jointer', because its purpose is to joint those long edges...

As to type/brand to buy: bit of a 'how long is a piece of string' question, but, FWIW, be aware that if you are uncertain/new to 'plane fettling', their sheer size makes them a bit of a chore to tune up. A new one in the sort of bracket you appear comfortable with will need a lot of tuning (eg a new Stanley).

Therefore, I would suggest getting a tuned second hand one from someone who knows what they're on. Alf's link to the Iles site is a good one: In your shoes, I'd be inclined to snap up that 'reground number 7' at £70.

When tuned, these are great fun tools - their weight blasts through the wood, and you can produce joints that are invisible to the naked eye.

If you're one of those who can't bear second hand for your tools, then the least agonising option in cost terms, but still at a very useable quality, would be the Clifton:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=21781&name=clifton&sfile=1&jump=16

If you go mad, then this Lie-Neilsen is as good as it gets:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=20384&name=lie neilsen&sfile=1&jump=8

Having said all of that, it is just possible that this 'might' be the answer to your prayers:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=47298&cat=1,41182,48944

Although nominally 'only' a number 6, it has some design features that make it easier to set up for a beginner with hand planes, and a longer sole in front of the mouth than is normal. You certainly should be able to joint with it, and the quality is pretty darn good - particularly at the price given the exchange rate with Canadian dollars at the moment. Not as 'specialised for jointing' as a trad number 7, but a better all rounder than a trad number 6 (you don't see too many number 6's around, which reflects relatively little user base...)

 

[dedee]

#7 jointer and a crash course in how to use it. It's a big ask as a first hand jointing experience though. :-k

It may well be a big ask but it can be done. My first attempt at edge jointing was on 1.5" thick oak planks (4 of them) and the results have stood the test of time see dining table see here.

These were prepared with a circular saw then an electric planer then finshed with a #7

I placed each piece on edge in the workmate then rubbed chalk along the edge, I then placed the next piece on top, when removed chalk marks left on the second peice indicated the high & low spots. I then glued the first two pieces together before working on the joint between the 2nd & 3rd boards - & so on. I am not so sure that this is "best practice" but knowing what I did then it seemed a good idea. Todate there has been no noticable movements between the joints.

Andy

 

[AndyBoyd]

There are always plenty of #7s on ebay, the older the better, they need just a much fettling as a new stanley and they are more stable.

Plus much cheaper

just a thought :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Mink

clamp the boards together (side by side). Run the Makita along them. reverse one and they will join very well.

having the boards clamped side-by-side will make the surface wider and you are more likely to get a 90 degree edge + both bits of wood will be out of square by an indentical amount which will cancel to zero when one is flippd over

 

[Steve Maskery]

HI MiNK

When I shoot long board, I do the following:

1 Place a triangle across the boards so that I know which edge mates with which.

2 Joint both edge on the P/T

3 Place one board in the vice, jointed edge up

4 Place 2nd board on it.

5 Hold a steel rule vertically to check they are in the same plane.

6 Push one end of the board. Now, if it pivots, it means it is high at that point (I don't know which, but it doesn't matter). I run a No. 8 along it, taking out the "bump". When the top board topples rather than pivots, I know that the boards are straight or hollow. Either way, they can be glued up and clamped. Being slightly hollow is MUCH better than being slightly round, as it keeps the board ends tight.

HTH
Cheers
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Hello all

Well, I've just ordered a used Record #7 Jointer (reground). Hopefully be with me within a couple of days.

I'll review all the suggestions of techniques etc. and have a go - probably practice on some scrap to start with though .

Many thanks for all your assistance.