Phil Pascoe
Established Member
Anyone got it and wish they hadn't? Any upsides or downsides I've not thought about? :?
Economy 7
- Thread starter Phil Pascoe
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beech1948
Established Member
Economy seven is just about the most expensive form of heating exceeded only by mains electricity. In terms of costs the heating fuels go as follows.
mains electric
Economy 7 electric
Oil
Bottled gas
LPG
Wood
Mains Gas
The difference between top and bottom is approximately 4x the cost of the least expensive. Terms of the study were based on average costs across each UK region per KwHr and were taken for each spring, summer, autumn and winter.
I last looked at this study about 2 months ago as we are considering a house move.
mains electric
Economy 7 electric
Oil
Bottled gas
LPG
Wood
Mains Gas
The difference between top and bottom is approximately 4x the cost of the least expensive. Terms of the study were based on average costs across each UK region per KwHr and were taken for each spring, summer, autumn and winter.
I last looked at this study about 2 months ago as we are considering a house move.
My heating is oil, my economy 7 meter is nothing to do with my heating. I have inherited a strange set up from the previous occupier though as I need to mainly use elec for hot water. So if I heat it prior to 7.30 I get economy 7 rates. Any other elec I use overnight is also much cheaper. As a shift worker I still need to see if it will work out better or not though for me.
Mark
Mark
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
My problem is that there is no mains gas, I can't justify oil as I don't need central heating (probably likewise LPG). Bottled gas would be handy to cook with, but still needs a boiler to heat water. The area has no gas so the electricity tariff will be high (they've got you by the balls) and our daytime use of electricity will be fairly high. Night storage heaters are a waste of time as there is no one indoors through the day, so the only real use of electricity at night is water heating - our hot water usage is high. I aim to make far more use of my lathe and power tools which will add to daytime electricity usage. From what I gather so far the daytime rate on economy 7 is more than a normal rate - so I don't know whether the plus will outweigh the minus.
We both would like a stove as we had one before, and I'll probably end up with a new hot tank but I'm trying to be certain of the minutiae before I do anything (waste any money
).
Edit - I'd also like household and water heating that wasn't totally dependent on electricity.
We both would like a stove as we had one before, and I'll probably end up with a new hot tank but I'm trying to be certain of the minutiae before I do anything (waste any money
).Edit - I'd also like household and water heating that wasn't totally dependent on electricity.
NikNak
Established Member
what about 'economy 10'....? same as 7 but with 3 extra hours during the day..... just saying
Richard863
Established Member
I have fitted water under floor heating with a 3" slab on top in my workshop and power it with a 2Kw electric heater this set to run during Economy 7 hours. The room temp is set to 19Deg. Like today -2C the unit has run for 1.5 hours overnight 9P at todays rate.
Nothing like having a dry warm room for your equipment. I haven't thought of plumbing in gas as my gas rate with Scottish doesn't bear thinking about, A wood burner, in my mind IFFY when not attended.
Hope this helps.
Richard
Nothing like having a dry warm room for your equipment. I haven't thought of plumbing in gas as my gas rate with Scottish doesn't bear thinking about, A wood burner, in my mind IFFY when not attended.
Hope this helps.
Richard
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
I've not looked into Economy 10 yet. Having had a multi fuel stove for 12yrs I wouldn't hesitate to leave it unattended. The stove was a "Clearview" which was a brilliant stove, except it averaged £150 p.a. in bricks, baffles, grids etc. - I'm trying to get away from that.
nev
Established Member
When we moved in we had E7 and night storage heaters. useless and expensive.
Then added a wood/ coal burner that also provided CH and HW. downsides being unless you keep it banked up overnight and when you are in work (doubling your fuel bill) you have to wait an hour or so before it warms up and the heating kicks in. Also if you want hot water in the summer you have to light the fire.
switched to bottled gas with a conventional combi with lpg conversion. costs the same as to run as the wood burner but it is instant, clean and automatic. No wood burner now and it averages out at a 47kg bottle of gas per month @55 quid a bottle. (maybe 2 a month in the snow and between june and october probably only used one in 2-3 months.)
Then added a wood/ coal burner that also provided CH and HW. downsides being unless you keep it banked up overnight and when you are in work (doubling your fuel bill) you have to wait an hour or so before it warms up and the heating kicks in. Also if you want hot water in the summer you have to light the fire.
switched to bottled gas with a conventional combi with lpg conversion. costs the same as to run as the wood burner but it is instant, clean and automatic. No wood burner now and it averages out at a 47kg bottle of gas per month @55 quid a bottle. (maybe 2 a month in the snow and between june and october probably only used one in 2-3 months.)
RogerS
Established Member
beech1948":14gxd6du said:
The Energy Savings Trust would dispute your league table. http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/con ... lculations
I know who I would rather believe.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
If I get the stove with the boiler, I'd keep electric water heating as an option but the electricity use in the late spring, summer and early autumn would be heavier in the daytime, which is why I'm in a quandary. I am correct in thinking all gas and oil boilers are dependent on an electricity supply? This is something I'm trying to get away from.
RogerS
Established Member
phil.p":2g5mgr8o said:
Yes but the actual boiler consumes very little electricity. The pump probably consumes more.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
I'm thinking about potential power cuts rather than consumption.
finneyb
Established Member
phil.p":1x7oc9p9 said:
I think you are correct. If heating is water based - the water needs to be pumped. The oil feed will probably need pumping. Gas has a safety flame cutoff that will need electricity. So I fear you need electricity for both gas and oil.
We have friends in Florida, the lightening capital of the world (allegedly), they have an emergency generator for power outages that automatically starts when the power goes off. Maybe a small 2kw generator could be rigged to supply 240v to gas or oil boiler in the event of a power outage - not auto though. There must be other uses for a small generator eg electric chainsaw.
HTH
Brian
RogerS
Established Member
Is your electricity supply that dodgy, Phil?
Taking a step back, what is it exactly that you are trying to achieve? Do you have any existing heating? Hot water immersion heater? Existing boiler? You don't necessarily need a combi boiler, for example. Do you have any scope for insulating your internal walls? Have you thought about having your boiler external to the house? We did and that allowed us to fundamentally re-arrange the utility/downstairs WC.
Taking a step back, what is it exactly that you are trying to achieve? Do you have any existing heating? Hot water immersion heater? Existing boiler? You don't necessarily need a combi boiler, for example. Do you have any scope for insulating your internal walls? Have you thought about having your boiler external to the house? We did and that allowed us to fundamentally re-arrange the utility/downstairs WC.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
I'm just reluctant to have everything dependent on electricity, and while future rationing is highly unlikely it's still a possibility the speed at which power stations are built. If I've major alterations anyway, I'd just as well be prepared. At the moment there are electric radiators :shock: electric cooking and water heating. Solar panels aren't out of the question, either, for water heating. I like stoves despite the limitations and I don't really need central heating. I'm quite sure there is no mains gas, but I'm in the process of making absolutely certain before I go any further.
beech1948
Established Member
I think the critical issue is cost and that this outweighs any other element.
What's available is also a critical issue...you can't have mains gas if non exists.
The costs issue also comes in if you try to provide your own electricity source be it a small windmill, attached storage batteries, photovoltaic cells on the roof. I have ignored water mills in streams as this is not readily available for most folks and very expensive.
If you do generate your own electric then the issue is do you stay with low voltages..eg 12,24 or 36v or rectify it to an equivalent to mains power. Even that is expensive.
Water heating via sunlight and panels on the roof is a £13k to £20k investment with a 25yr or greater payback...WTF. The reduction in costs for water heating is miniscule and probably not worth it.
Ground water heat pumps..similarly if slightly less expensive.
Air to water heat pumps...less expensive but still a long payback period.
I'm deliberately ignoring the buggeration factor of all the work, muck and stress of doing/getting this done by someone else.
One area not yet explored is that people can group together to buy oil or gas as a much larger group and so get some reduction in basic costs. There are a few of these groups now set up and working on a national scale. I don't know how much less you would be paying yet.
Similarly would it be possible for a loose grouping of like minded souls who are "handy" to be able to construct these things for each other with parts sourced from the chinese factories ( it seems that all things are made in China these days). Would that be possible and would that be significantly cheaper. That is pay for parts but swop labour so its free.
A friend who got thoroughly fed up with all of the expensive charges moved to a registered small holding to get access to Red Diesel. He now runs an modern engine from a volvo truck and via belts drives 2 quite large generators. He says it is cheaper than any other form of power he had available even mains gas. I'm going to look at his bills in two weeks just out of curiosity. Obviously does not work if you live in a town or urban life style.
What's available is also a critical issue...you can't have mains gas if non exists.
The costs issue also comes in if you try to provide your own electricity source be it a small windmill, attached storage batteries, photovoltaic cells on the roof. I have ignored water mills in streams as this is not readily available for most folks and very expensive.
If you do generate your own electric then the issue is do you stay with low voltages..eg 12,24 or 36v or rectify it to an equivalent to mains power. Even that is expensive.
Water heating via sunlight and panels on the roof is a £13k to £20k investment with a 25yr or greater payback...WTF. The reduction in costs for water heating is miniscule and probably not worth it.
Ground water heat pumps..similarly if slightly less expensive.
Air to water heat pumps...less expensive but still a long payback period.
I'm deliberately ignoring the buggeration factor of all the work, muck and stress of doing/getting this done by someone else.
One area not yet explored is that people can group together to buy oil or gas as a much larger group and so get some reduction in basic costs. There are a few of these groups now set up and working on a national scale. I don't know how much less you would be paying yet.
Similarly would it be possible for a loose grouping of like minded souls who are "handy" to be able to construct these things for each other with parts sourced from the chinese factories ( it seems that all things are made in China these days). Would that be possible and would that be significantly cheaper. That is pay for parts but swop labour so its free.
A friend who got thoroughly fed up with all of the expensive charges moved to a registered small holding to get access to Red Diesel. He now runs an modern engine from a volvo truck and via belts drives 2 quite large generators. He says it is cheaper than any other form of power he had available even mains gas. I'm going to look at his bills in two weeks just out of curiosity. Obviously does not work if you live in a town or urban life style.
RogerS
Established Member
beech1948":336xd6tq said:
On our experience savings are marginal, if at all. Our scheme has an annual charge of £20. Because the savings are so small, you need to burn at least 2000 litres a year just to break even based the last time we ordered from them. We try and limit our oil consumption to a 1000 litres a year and so this year we ran at a 'loss'. We won't bother next year.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
Update. Definitely no mains gas. Oil, LPG and bottled gas are out. Looking into solar thermal and/or P.V. - I thought the upside of solar thermal was they were good if you used a lot of hot water - there's no point in using heat to generate electricity to use to heat water? The stove is a given, whether or not with a back boiler - we got used to one, and it saved us a fortune (although having only one leg, I think my tree felling days are finished ).
).
