Easiest Blade and Chisel Sharpening

[Ttrees]

AndyT
I think most of us have shared their opinions already on what works for them.

Before I'll be judged for mentioning the word "easy", I do not mean it in terms of effort required. It is to understand what works for most people in my shoes (hobby woodworker, beginner, use hand tools as much as possible and not rely on machine tools)
I don't see how any of the further in-depth discussions is in anyway unhelpful or would cause folks to get fed up with the site.
I'd safely guess that if a thread was so rigid that it stuck to only what hone, stone or abrasive
folks were using, It would make for a far less interesting read.

It seems some folk are a bit contradictory about others stating what works for them, and thus leading to more thread derailments.
Tom

 

[MikeG.]

And they will continue Woodbloke66
Sharp is useless if the profile is not correct.
This is well within the realms of what I would consider appropriate to discuss
on a thread that is titled...easiest blade and chisel sharpening.

There is plenty of folks here that still aren't aware of the close set cap iron, so it's definitely a valid subject to keep discussing.
By that I mean sharpening techniques on getting that perfect camber.
Sharp might be the subject, but it isn't the challenging part.

Tom

Do you struggle to understand what people write, Tom? Sharpening is sharpening. That's what I meant when I said that words have meanings. It is absolutely nothing whatever to do with setting/ adjusting, using. This thread, and dozens of others you have wrecked, is about sharpening. Oh, and in case you didn't know, there are plenty of woodworking tools which require sharpening which aren't planes

 

[MikeG.]

.........I don't see how any of the further in-depth discussions is in anyway unhelpful or would cause folks to get fed up with the site.........

Your failure to understand is blindingly obvious. You don't need to understand. You just need to act on the results. You hose people off enormously by hijacking every damn thread about putting an edge on a piece of steel with endless whittering about other pet subjects, and by endlessly telling people who actually know what they are doing that they are wrong.

 

[Ttrees]

Sharpening involves more than getting something sharp.
If that were all it were about, it wouldn't be in anyway interesting.
Why are you reading or posting at all if it were not the case.

Indeed there are other tools apart from plane irons that need to be sharpened.
This is a perfect example of why there's more than meets the eye to getting something sharp.
"Wearable" hones of all descriptions are not excluded from this thread, but I feel if I were to start mentioning stone wear
and maintenance, you might have a problem with it, even though the OP wishes to know what works for most people in BP122's shoes.
What if someone like this finds a skipful of sapele?
Should they just get used to tearout, and scrape their timber flat?
That gets old fast.

 

[MikeG.]

Sharpening involves more than getting something sharp.

Yeah, I thought so. You don't understand simple words.

If that were all it were about, it wouldn't be in anyway interesting.

It isn't interesting.

Why are you reading or posting at all if it were not the case.

To try to stop you destroying yet another thread, and to stop you putting off newcomers to the hobby (and to the forum). Your obsessions are ruining other peoples' hobbies.

What if someone like this finds a skipful of sapele?
Should they just get used to tearout, and scrape their timber flat?
That gets old fast.

Great subject for a conversation ......... in a thread about avoiding tearout. NOT IN A THREAD ABOUT SHARPENING.

 

[Trevanion]

The simplest tools always seem to have the most complex discussions.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

However did I guess this would be seventeen pages of groundhog day?

 

[woodbloke66]

Have you ever actually made anything, Tom?

I'm intrigued as well Mike - Rob

 

[FatmanG]

I'm new to the forum and haven't been bored to tears yet, I have watched and read countless things about sharpening including toms videos this morning. I get your passion for the subject tom but in trying to help others there are ways and means of going about it and criticising others and being condescending in my opinion isn't a good way of going about it. I want to learn as much as I can as fast as I can I too have passion and come here tom to learn not argue or fall out.

 

[FatmanG]

Have you ever actually made anything, Tom?

I'm intrigued as well Mike - Rob

I've just looked through your projects, truly beautiful work mate stunning. I aspire to make my projects as good . =D>

 

[thetyreman]

Have you ever actually made anything, Tom?

I'm intrigued as well Mike - Rob

+1 so am I

 

[D_W]

You don't have to be jurgen klopp to teach novices the offside rule. If to be a teacher you have to be the best then there would be no teachers especially if they get slaughtered for doing so. God help the human race then. Its Xmas time for merriment and good will no need to pull anyone down. Not IMO its just not very nice. :ho2

I agree - we're talking about two different things. People who excel at teaching others, and those who work at the top of a given craft. There's sometimes intersection of those two. Even when you find your favorite teacher, and they're teaching something that beginners would generally do, you'll find completely different but equally good answers.

I get the sense that Charlesworth in one of his videos when he talks about an instructor not using guides may be referring to sellers. Maybe sellers has referred to others like charlesworth.

Neither of those folks uses hand tools for work only (vs. teaching) and if you work with hand tools only long enough, you'll find that neither of their sharpening methods is fast enough for you.

 

[Ttrees]

David W
No matter what I've tired, I cannot emulate the method you use for that camber.
My variables on this have just about gone now the stone is flat, I had to flatten the box bottom
along the way to rule that out just incase.
I have been trying out using my other hand aswell with a bit more success to even out the wear on the stone, but not concrete set that its foolproof.
It wouldn't take long on a diamond hone using the corners, but that's probably bad practice.

I have not long left until I can go back to the washita which is slimmer.
I just want to get more of a feeling for this soft ark whilst its finally flat, and develop a method for me to use up all of the stone.
Tom

 

[thetyreman]

I get the sense that Charlesworth in one of his videos when he talks about an instructor not using guides may be referring to sellers. Maybe sellers has referred to others like charlesworth.

Neither of those folks uses hand tools for work only (vs. teaching) and if you work with hand tools only long enough, you'll find that neither of their sharpening methods is fast enough for you.

then what is the fastest best solution? criticising somebody then not giving solutions is not good enough.

 

[D_W]

I get the sense that Charlesworth in one of his videos when he talks about an instructor not using guides may be referring to sellers. Maybe sellers has referred to others like charlesworth.

Neither of those folks uses hand tools for work only (vs. teaching) and if you work with hand tools only long enough, you'll find that neither of their sharpening methods is fast enough for you.

then what is the fastest best solution? criticising somebody then not giving solutions is not good enough.

Freehand, machine ground primary bevel - around 20-25 degrees - it doesn't really matter, then second bevel with a single stone and a tiny sliver of a third stone at a bevel slightly higher than the second bevel.

That's all there is to it. The second bevel gives you decent steel to work with and the ability to establish precise geometry if needed (like on a smoother iron) without having to grind the entire iron into that (through its thickness), and the tertiary bevel (with something very fine and slow cutting - making it any larger than necessary will waste time and cost more sharpening time next iteration).

The size of the tiny final bevel keeps it from causing wedging problems on chisels, gives you little to have to work (So doing it perfectly is easy), gives a very good finish to the edge in contact with the wood and the slightly higher angle at the final bevel will protect the edge from small nicking (or in the case of a chisel that's too hard or too soft - slightly of either - allow use without rolling or chipping).

Unlike just about every blog and tutorial on the internet would suggest, it helps if the final stone is slow instead of fast. If the item being sharpened isn't resident in a honing guide, you have the touch and nuance to finish that tiny bevel right at the edge instead of cutting a substantial facet.

 

[D_W]

David W
No matter what I've tired, I cannot emulate the method you use for that camber.
My variables on this have just about gone now the stone is flat, I had to flatten the box bottom
along the way to rule that out just incase.
I have been trying out using my other hand aswell with a bit more success to even out the wear on the stone, but not concrete set that its foolproof.
It wouldn't take long on a diamond hone using the corners, but that's probably bad practice.

I have not long left until I can go back to the washita which is slimmer.
I just want to get more of a feeling for this soft ark whilst its finally flat, and develop a method for me to use up all of the stone.
Tom

When you say method, do you mean something in an older video? Like working an iron across the length of a stone in a sweep?

Ultimately, a washita used by itself won't be perfectly flat, and most of what contact the ends/corners of the stones is the back of the iron and not the bevel (if the bevel slips off and its the edge of the stone while you're working the bevel side, you'll dent the iron).

 

[D_W]

I'll make a video at some point to illustrate what I mentioned in the post above. It's exceedingly simple, it's fast, and it results in a completed sharpening every time. It wouldn't be suitable for beginners, I guess, because you have to know what result you're looking for rather than relying on specific angles.

Years ago, I was restoring japanese chisels and the japanese mantra is strict - cut a bevel, polish the entire thing. I rarely actually receive used japanese chisels like that, though - they're usually slightly rounded or have a small secondary bevel on them rounded over.

I love the way a flat chisel bevel looks, but I roll up the last tiny bit on the edge because the chisel just holds up better, and it's perfectly sharp every time. In knife sharpening terms, the very tiny final bevel pushes the failure point further into the rest of the bevel instead of leaving it at the very edge. If you're not abusing the tool, you'll never get that second level failure.

At any rate, I was talking to a professional woodworker who had ordered chisels from So Yamashita (??) who would set up chisels for pay, and he mentioned that So did the same thing as I do, and said pretty much "it just works better".

You don't have to be a good woodworker to benefit from this. Here's why:
1) you are guaranteed to be working to the very edge. Whether you're making mediocre items or not, you're better off if you sharpen faster with a higher % completion rate
2) you can finish work straight off of the plane, even if you're a mediocre woodworker (I do, and I'm a mediocre woodworker). Focusing on such a small part right at the edge of the blade gives you uniformity from edge to edge
3) on blades, this is a way to use a very fine slow final stone sacrificing a tiny bit of clearance in exchange for a much stronger initial edge at a higher polish level

The life of the latter before failure is much longer than the former. I actually tested this as part of a recent edge life test - once clearance is 10 degrees or more, polish level dominates in dictating edge life. But nobody wants to go through a 4-8 minute process to get it (neither do I).

 

[MikeG.]

Isaac Newton (and Gottfried Liebnitz) developed calculus by looking at the geometry of ever decreasing lengths of straight line that collectively tend towards curves. DW seems to be attempting the same thing, albeit practically rather than through pure mathematical theory. The argument will boil down to how small the nth bevel is, and to when a collection of multiple bevels is in fact a curve. All Sellers* seems to have done is to have cut out the complication and gone straight to the curve**.

Guess what? They all work.



*Not Sellers, of course. Curved "bevels" have been used for centuries.

**Want a fun variation? I hone a (straight) secondary bevel on chisels, but deliberately strop a curve.

 

[Jacob]

..... All Sellers* seems to have done is to have cut out the complication and gone straight to the curve**... Curved "bevels" have been used for centuries.

Because it's easier and quicker - so that's what everybody did, probably from the stone age onwards.
The pointless obsession with flat bevels is recent - a follow on from the many little problems the honing jig causes.

 

[D_W]

Isaac Newton (and Gottfried Liebnitz) developed calculus by looking at the geometry of ever decreasing lengths of straight line tending towards curves. DW seems to be attempting the same thing, albeit practically rather than through pure mathematical theory. The argument will boil down to how small the nth bevel is, and to when a collection of multiple bevels is in fact a curve. All Sellers* seems to have done is to have cut out the complication and gone straight to the curve**.

Guess what? They all work.



*Not Sellers, of course. Curved "bevels" have been used for centuries.

**Want a fun variation? I hone a (straight) secondary bevel on chisels, but deliberately strop a curve.

The geometry isn't what it is as a matter of anything other than minimizing the work done so that you can achieve a finer finish faster than you could with sellers' methods.

Sellers advocates a method that would be good for a worksite, and decent for roughing.

Any sharpening method works fine if you complete it. What I'm advocating results in completion more often at a higher finish level and less time spent in sharpening.

Great way to sharpen knife bevels, too. You get a strong edge. I guess the bevel geometry behind the last tiny strip of polish is important on chisels to the extent that a tiny bevel above 30 degrees won't add much resistance, but a full bevel above 30 degrees will add a lot of wedging resistance.

That's assuming, too, that someone is actually using knives and chisels for significant work (or what's typical for knives, a lot of slicing).