Question for diamond stone users: are they OK to use with laminated Japanese chisels? I've heard it said that the softer backing steel can irreversibly clog the stones up if you use them to hone the bevel.
Easiest Blade and Chisel Sharpening
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thetyreman
Established Member
JohnCee":28h1fukh said:
I have used japanese laminated blades on my DMT stones and there's not been problems here, it's a load of rubbish from what I've experienced.
thetyreman":6xwfpdf3 said:
some of the ultra high japanese planes and chisels (which are, in my opinion, bumping up against a potentially troublesome line of hardness vs. toughness - toughness being the chip preventing property) will fracture if they are sharpened with crystolon stones or diamonds in medium and low grit.
I haven't run into anything yet that has an issue with small diamonds.
If you have something widely available for chisels and not bumping up against those limits, you may still find trouble with retention a time or two after grinding on coarse diamonds, but probably not with anything else. The real issue with diamonds and chisels is that most plates fail from diamonds being pulled out of the matrix over time. The big ones go first (thus the instant loss of tooth in cutting that you feel over the first dozen or so uses and then much slower decline), but the rest gradually get pulled. The harder steel is, the more likely the diamonds are to remain in their electroplate fixture. It's difficult to avoid introducing soft steel or iron to a diamond hone. I don't think it's a deal breaker, but generally don't find diamonds necessary with any japanese tools.
Long story short, most japanese tools won't have any issues with diamonds in ordinary use. But there are some higher end tools that don't tolerate some of the more aggressive coarse modern abrasives. If you're asking "what's high end?", it's generally tokyo (and now tokyo style) blacksmiths and offshoots from them who make ultra hard tools. Kiyotada, etc - things you're not likely to chance upon if you're buying from retailers of new tools these days.
thetyreman
Established Member
oops, I misread it and didn't see you'll be using chisels, I meant for japanese laminated plane blades, the 2mm thick ones designed to replace O1 steel blades, my diamond stones seem ok with them.
D_W":1t06adcc said:
I think the difference between you and Paul Sellers is by your own admission is you're a fanatical sharpener where he is a fanatical craftsman/woodworker. His work is out there for all to see. Paul is teaching inexperienced woodworker's the basics but even so he still is able to give out correct advice always. As a student gains experience he is able to hone his skill in every aspect he is taught. I'm sick and tired of seeing Paul being dismissed like some you tube silly person who talks rubbish. Nobody is perfect but I feel whether you disagree with the minutiae or not he deserves respect. Imho
Yes it's easy to take pot shots at people in the public eye, please take it on faith that's not what I'm doing here.
But you see this is part of the problem:
Sellers's method can certainly work – it obviously works for him and it has undeniably helped a great many people get much better edges, including yours truly – but commenters are free to point out that there are issues with it for the newbie and learner, and that there are superior techniques (better results faster) that one can aspire to.
But you see this is part of the problem:
Unfortunately he doesn't.FatmanG":2fyjkp9y said:
This is not just a matter of minutia. Sharpening is a cornerstone aspect of the craft he is striving to help people with (largely successfully I might add) and good work can fail or succeed on the strength of it.FatmanG":2fyjkp9y said:
Sellers's method can certainly work – it obviously works for him and it has undeniably helped a great many people get much better edges, including yours truly – but commenters are free to point out that there are issues with it for the newbie and learner, and that there are superior techniques (better results faster) that one can aspire to.
As a total newbie sharpener, I started with the Paul sellers sandpaper method, and it was ok. But, based on advice on this forum, I tried using diamond stones, that is much easier and faster, and costs the same (maybe cheaper in the long term).
So as a beginner, diamond stones all the way. Paul sellers also uses diamond stones, to be fair. But I'm glad he teaches various methods.
Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
So as a beginner, diamond stones all the way. Paul sellers also uses diamond stones, to be fair. But I'm glad he teaches various methods.
Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
FatmanG":ml3b9e4c said:
Sellers specifically tells people that they need to do the full progression, every time. This does have some specific disadvantages; it needlessly wastes steel for one, and it increases the risk of a less-experienced user altering the edge profile unintentionally. But on the other hand it does ensure anyone following his practices to the letter will never fail to remove the wear bevel even if they have the bad habit of leaving their honing interval too long.FatmanG":ml3b9e4c said:
So plus and minus. But for the typical user I can promise you if you do some comparative tests you'll find you don't need to touch the bevel to a coarser plate in the normal course of your work.
Even minor damage doesn't require it. I nicked/dented a chisel edge the other day by repeatedly running it into a stub of nail I didn't know was there and even with this I didn't need to reach for my coarsest plate. In fact I repaired the edge on my 1,000. Because diamonds are awesome 8) [/b]
He shows how to sharpen/restore tools he buys cheap usually off ebay. He shows how to get cheap aldi chisels ready from out of the packet. He is teaching inexperienced users the basics of how to get a tool sharp to use. You have to recognize the target audience if he responded like some have on here to the OP question nobody would ever pick up a tool. Why people try and pull others down to try and make themselves look superior is like the man who drives a rolls to mask the size of his nobbly bit or worse just a jealous wannabe IMHO. Disagree with some one by all means but calling him a fool isn't on. I wonder how those apprentice with autism he's training feel being mentored by a fool. Where's the respect in this world gone?
I accept your not taking potshots I respect you for saying so. I have studied woodworking at length unable to get out of bed for years and Paul's methods are the very best out there IMO I would be happy to view any you may think that are superior please post me a link. If its a case of I say so believe me guv then that's just a case of hot air for me my body may of got battered but my eyesight works. I'm now putting into practice what I've studied and its working verbatimED65":33f8fii3 said:
FatmanG":348pkpz8 said:
Paul Sellers has been instructing mostly beginners and intermediate woodworkers for more than 30 years. That's been, as far as I know, his main source of income.
Before that, he trained as a joiner. Not as a cabinetmaker or instrument maker.
I don't have a specific case for something paul says where it gets different scrutiny than what anyone else would say, but there are true makers in this world. Paul is not a fanatical maker. he is a pontificator and a sometimes maker and he's managed to get a piece in the white house that it appears others contributed on. Without a relationship and living in texas, it's not on the same level as most of the stuff in the whitehouse.
There are fanatical makers, to use your terms. I am an amateur maker, not a fanatical maker. I also wouldn't have the patience to teach people, so my hat's off to him for that.
George Wilson is a fanatical maker - still around, and if you have a question about design or truly fine work, he can be called and consulted for free. And even to the point that it may not be historically accurate, George does his work end to end, from stock to finish.
I'm sure there are many like George, but they are not accessible to us because they're too busy making. George is accessible to people like me because he was a fanatical maker and age and wear and tear has reduced the number of hours he can physically work in a given day. He's happy to spend the surplus talking if you have serious questions.
I know that it bothers people sometimes to find out that their favorite sources of information aren't really that accomplished. As a maker, I've never seen anything to suggest that Paul has done fine work. I've never seen fine work done by Chris Schwarz (but in the united states, you can get yourself absolutely flamed if you say that - some of that has blown over). When you go up the ladder to the fine makers, like people who work in the Headley, Peter Ross, etc (among those who are really masters at a craft and still working - I'm sure there are many in each generation). Not all of them have the disposition to teach rudimentary thing year after year.
dannyr
Established Member
"sharpening"? but then, why shouldn't the conversation drift?
I enjoy reading some Paul Sellers stuff - the world could do with a few more of his general outlook. BUT - he can be somewhat dogmatic, doesn't easily accept some other views. For example, I once praised his work and a made a very minor point about a difficulty with an aspect of his design - came down on me like a ton of bricks. Ah well - I'll still read some of his stuff, but not bother to get into any dialogue - praise is what seems to be wanted. Still - if he has a caring outlook, which he does, if he loves nature and treads lightly, if he inspires some, then maybe he has helped to make the world a better place.
Likewise Chris Schwartz (sp?) - a fine publisher, including books on both rustic and 'fine' wood making. I think he does some interesting work on analysing the making of benches, tool-boxes, and some unsophisticated but fit-for-purpose furniture using the tools of 'experimental archaeology'. I think he is more self-aware about his place in the world of wood and tools than Sellers.
I think the world would be a poorer place without them both, and the 'fine' makers you, D_W, mention (eg - I greatly admire Wilson's skill, but the product is not to my taste - but I won't argue with anyone if they love it -- 'enjoy', as they say).
d
I enjoy reading some Paul Sellers stuff - the world could do with a few more of his general outlook. BUT - he can be somewhat dogmatic, doesn't easily accept some other views. For example, I once praised his work and a made a very minor point about a difficulty with an aspect of his design - came down on me like a ton of bricks. Ah well - I'll still read some of his stuff, but not bother to get into any dialogue - praise is what seems to be wanted. Still - if he has a caring outlook, which he does, if he loves nature and treads lightly, if he inspires some, then maybe he has helped to make the world a better place.
Likewise Chris Schwartz (sp?) - a fine publisher, including books on both rustic and 'fine' wood making. I think he does some interesting work on analysing the making of benches, tool-boxes, and some unsophisticated but fit-for-purpose furniture using the tools of 'experimental archaeology'. I think he is more self-aware about his place in the world of wood and tools than Sellers.
I think the world would be a poorer place without them both, and the 'fine' makers you, D_W, mention (eg - I greatly admire Wilson's skill, but the product is not to my taste - but I won't argue with anyone if they love it -- 'enjoy', as they say).
d
In one of the Q&As he used to post on YouTube he answered a viewer question about day-to-day or routine sharpening and what's necessary and he said to do the full sharpening routine, every time. As I say above this does ensure anyone following his practices to the letter will never fail to remove the wear bevel which is not an uncommon issue in learner sharpening; but like I go on to say if you do some comparisons you will find it's not necessary. Ergo it does needlessly waste steel and time.FatmanG":3vinjgsd said:
Hang on a second, I don't see anyone doing that.FatmanG":3vinjgsd said:
Saying a method is foolish or that something is a fool's errand is not calling the person espousing whatever it is a fool.FatmanG":3vinjgsd said:
That's super, so presumably you've read Sellers's first book. Seek out a copy of Steve Branam's "Hand Tool Basics" (your local library system may have a copy) and be suitably amazed by the contrast, both in terms of quality of content and in the design and layout of the book itself. This is perhaps an unfair comparison as I consider Branam's book possibly the best on the subject. Shout out to Chris Tribe's book which is also excellent, and also a superior learning tool IMO.FatmanG":2dk2yu4h said:
Fair enough.FatmanG":2dk2yu4h said:
Unlike D_W I don't care if Paul Sellers is a fine maker or not; you can get good instruction from people who aren't at what some would consider the peak of their field – in fact aren't we're often forced to, in any area of interest? – and there's much of what he shows and demonstrates that I don't think people should have qualms with, it being good solid advice. Sharpening is not one of these however. Again, not because it doesn't work. But you can aspire to better, and spend less time doing it each and every time so you get much more than a twofold benefit.
So my main point is that X and Y can work without them being the final word on something.
And another excellent example would be the smooth plane and how to use it to its full potential. Now fair warning this IS a pot shot at Sellers: he obviously was never taught to use the cap iron properly, and never picked up a copy of the "Planecraft" booklet which concisely lays out how to use it (although perhaps undersells the great importance of it).
So "55 years of experience" or no he is not the person to get you fully up to speed on that aspect of using a plane. Re-familiarise yourself with his advice on smooth planing and then compare and contrast to someone who is using the cap iron properly. Rather ironically, you'd do a lot worse than to listen to D_W here on that front.
Fellas I have no qualms in you disagreeing with him nor do I believe he is the messiah my issue is him being called a fool as if he talks rubbish. I will look at the advice offered many thanks. Anything that will help me improve my skills I'm definitely interested in. My last word on Sellers is he may not be the person I think he is or he portrays but i cannot forget unknowingly he helped me for free get through some dark days maybe that's why I'm defensive of him.
Trevanion
Greatest Of All Time
ED65":1dm1li7f said:
The whole "I've got XX years of experience" has always bugged me, not with Sellers but with just people in general thinking that it actually means anything. If you haven't been constantly improving and expanding your skills and knowledge for that lets say that 55 years and all your knowledge was really gained in the first 5 years I think you can really only say you've got 5 years of experience, 50 years of practicing it. I've seen many of the older guys in Joinery do the whole "I've got XX years of experience me, I'm pretty much a master at this and know everything" and absolutely do a horrendous job of what they're supposed to do, usually cost far more for their "experience" than any other young buck who might even have more experience than the old fellow. Usually, if someone gets like that with me and starts spouting the whole "I've got XX years of experience so I know what I'm on about!" I like to respond with something like "Well, What did you do in those XX years? Ever made an opening louvered oval window? Double curvature boxed sash?" And the usual response is "Uh, oh, Umm... No."
As for Sellers, I don't think you can get much better for the fundamental basics of the craft, but he can be quickly outgrown and students move onto more complex work and teachings elsewhere. You can't really say anything he shows is wrong persay as it all works to a degree, but it can be vastly improved upon as mentioned above.
thetyreman
Established Member
what sellers is doing is called pitching, he's pitching himself and selling himself and putting his name out there, he has to do it or it'd just come across in the wrong way, I can get over him saying the same thing again because of the value he brings and lets not forget the vast majority of it is free! you will never please all of the people all of the time.
thetyreman
Established Member
D_W":juvhy0mx said:
so did chippendale! I think it's essential to understand joinery in cabinetmaking.
Lons
Established Member
What a strange world we live in now where it's so easy to put down anyone who we don't agree with or dislike, youtube and the internet have revolutionised the way we gather information but the downside of that is misinformation, often bad and sometimes dangerous practice and is very sad really.
When only books were available and even then expensive and not always easy to get hold of we would buy one, maybe two and work through them, now we don't need any though some of us still love leafing through pages, the info we want is there at the touch of a button and can be overwhelming to a beginner however surely we are all intelligent enough to look at all the different viewpoints and pick the most sensible which are often the most used methods.
We don't need arguments or fall outs over sharpening methods do we fellas? :lol:
If there was only one way to do something though that's often vehemently stated by the odd person about sharpening methods then that's exactly the way we all would be doing it, wouldn't we? :wink:
When only books were available and even then expensive and not always easy to get hold of we would buy one, maybe two and work through them, now we don't need any though some of us still love leafing through pages, the info we want is there at the touch of a button and can be overwhelming to a beginner however surely we are all intelligent enough to look at all the different viewpoints and pick the most sensible which are often the most used methods.
We don't need arguments or fall outs over sharpening methods do we fellas? :lol:
If there was only one way to do something though that's often vehemently stated by the odd person about sharpening methods then that's exactly the way we all would be doing it, wouldn't we? :wink:
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
I beg to differ Trevanion,Trevanion":2eo3n7z6 said:
The absolute worst of the worst is that plane rehab video.
That should be taken down.
I learned the hard way on how to do this right.
Pure bad form, really throwing his plane out of whack by those lapping shenanigans,
I do realise over 99% of videos of this procedure are also showing incorrect methods, but folks actually listen and copy Sellers, after all he has shown some skills.
Planing isn't one of them though, which is evident from the get go watching him plane long timbers unsupported, and in a vice?
Perfect.....ya right, cringeworthy those antics are.
Ever seen his attempts to do the opposite of the textbooks, lifting the back of the plane =D>
Grasping at straws that is.
Charlesworth is known for demonstrating and explaining the most clearly, light years ahead of anyone else, and demonstrates lifting the plane in an exaggerated fashion for newbies to understand and not waste their timber.
After watching Charlesworth check out David Weaver for cap iron demonstrations.
No one else has really done as good a job as these two guys.
I wouldn't be so damming if Sellers had removed that video, or at least bothered to realise
that it is detrimental to the tool, and acknowledged this.
It's not fun making a mess of the plane you have wanted and been saving up for.
Wasting timber is one thing, but damaging you tool is on a whole other level
Tom
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