DT gauge, simple cheap and handy

[custard]

It usually takes me a little over an an hour to mark out, cut, fit, and glue the parts for an average drawer in a chest of drawers meant to hold clothes. Dovetailing all the drawers for a five drawer chest of drawers is less than a day's work. That's as fast as I want or need to be and still have the process be moderately enjoyable.

Wow! It'd take me a full week to make and fit three or at the very most four drawers, but that includes drawer slips and solid cedar or camphor drawer bottoms.

 

[Trafalgar]

That's a day to cut joints and glue all the drawers.

The materials would have already been processed to very close to finished dimensions, one edge shot on the fronts, sides, and back, grooves run on fronts, parts stacked, marked, numbered, read to go. Drawer bottoms would be planed and squared with only a nip and tuck allowance. If the drawer calls for slips I run that early in the job and leave uncut 'til glue up day. It's ready to go other than for crosscutting to length. They are attached with hot hide glue, just rubbed on. Bottoms are trimmed and slid in before closing the doors at the end of the day.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

It usually takes me a little over an an hour to mark out, cut, fit, and glue the parts for an average drawer in a chest of drawers meant to hold clothes. Dovetailing all the drawers for a five drawer chest of drawers is less than a day's work. That's as fast as I want or need to be and still have the process be moderately enjoyable.

That's pretty good going Charles. I read somewhere - I'm sure David C will recognise this and confirm - that the average drawer took about 4 1/2 hours to build by hand by an experienced cabinetmaker. Presumably from scratch.

A coupe of years ago I built 12 drawers for two military chests. I timed how long they took to build. The build included dovetailing and fitting the parts, including slips, and then glueing up. Final trimming was not recorded as this was after the glue dried.

At the start it took me 4 1/2 hrs per drawer. At the end of the series this was down to 2 1/2 hrs.

I guess I could have saved 10 minutes per drawer by not using a marking guide.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

......
I guess I could have saved 10 minutes per drawer by not using a marking guide. ..

And why not?
I expect it would be a lot more once you got the hang of it.
And there would have been other speedy shortcuts in the bad old days when people we were working hard to piece rates etc.
It seems a pity to me that people don't seem to want to know how stuff was made (nearly all DTs obviously freehand) and why, and with how few special tools or gadgets, when the hand-making of timber products was a major occupation.
It's not that you have to mimic them, but neither do you have to obey the arbitrary rules of our modern masters :roll: of "correctness" , and all do it the same official way.

Nice DTs Derek and I see you are following instructions! Those end half pins look a bit flimsy though. No scope for wear or adjustment. Is that an approved modern style or have you boldly gone out on a limb, against the grain? :lol:

 

[Sgian Dubh]

It usually takes me a little over an an hour to mark out, cut, fit, and glue the parts for an average drawer in a chest of drawers meant to hold clothes. Dovetailing all the drawers for a five drawer chest of drawers is less than a day's work. That's as fast as I want or need to be and still have the process be moderately enjoyable.

That's pretty good going Charles. I read somewhere - I'm sure David C will recognise this and confirm - that the average drawer took about 4 1/2 hours to build by hand by an experienced cabinetmaker. Derek

Back in the 1970s The Council for Small Industries in Rural Areas (CoSIRA) in the UK published 'A Guide To Estimating For Cabinet Makers'. It's the source I used for estimating when I started in the business. Over the years and decades I have kept records of my work and modified times, added procedures, etc in the light of my experience and through changes in technology as it appeared and became commonplace. For example there weren't such things as biscuit jointers and CNC machines when I began, and a plunge router was a pretty new and whizzy tool! I started compiling information in a folder and eventually created my own version of Estimating for Furniture Makers and I've had many people get in touch about it over the years and offer compliments because of its usefulness to them.

Anyway, be that as it may CoSIRA's original document says of drawer making:

"Estimate at 8 hours per drawer. This includes making the drawer complete, fitting runners, guides, kickers and running in the drawer. Fitting handles would be extra.
Cockbeads should be estimated at 1/2 per foot and 1/2 hour per joint.
Mouldings planted on drawer fronts should be estimated as for mouldings [meaning to create the moulding profile with estimating suggestions elsewhere in the text] plus 1/2 hour per joint."

For comparison the text in my estimating guide says:

"Hand dovetailed drawers. Estimate at 8 hrs per drawer for a single premium quality traditional drawer. This means making the drawer complete starting with random lengths of squared timber. Apart from cutting the timber to length and pre-fitting, the dovetails must be marked and executed. The charge includes time for making and installing a solid wood bottom. This is fitted to slips moulded and joined to the drawer sides. The drawer is finally installed by skimming with a hand plane to suit the opening. Attaching handles is extra and depends upon the handle. Carving or turning and installing wooden handles takes longer than screwing on a proprietary item. Lesser quality drawers don’t take so long to make and should be priced accordingly.

Fitting cockbeads to drawers are estimated at half an hour per 300 mm. (1 ft) length, plus 0.5 hrs per scarf joint or corner mitre.

Producing separate mouldings for later planting on to drawer fronts are estimated as for mouldings, plus half an hour per joint and 0.5 hrs each for installing each 300 mm length as with cockbeads.

All the drawer making operations described are discounted in 5% increments up to 30%. A nest of 5 hand cut graduated drawers in a cabinet can be calculated, 5 X 8 (hrs) minus 25% = 30 hrs."

A copy of my Estimating guide if anyone is interested can be found here: http://www.richardjonesfurniture.com/Ar ... icles.html

In truth I can make these 'premium' drawers in perhaps a little less than half that time, but that is down to experience - when I started about four decades ago I couldn't work that fast. For instance, I used to laboriously mark out each dovetail carefully prior to cutting and then saw the waste out with a coping saw before trimming to the base line with a chisel. Nowadays I usually (but not always) just eyeball the position of the tails and the gap between them, saw just a hair beyond the shoulder line, and whack the waste out with a chisel and a hefty blow or two from a heavy mallet. Indeed my estimating guide advises users of it to monitor their work and to modify their time estimates for any process or job based on their records, experience, work methods, new technology, etc.

Still, I reckon Charles is working pretty efficiently to be able to make an "average drawer in a chest of drawers" in a bit over an hour. Slainte.

 

[Jacob]

When hand processes were the only ones I don't suppose anybody ever made a single drawer in isolation but would have done them in sizeable batches, which would reduce the time by a very large amount. One-offs would be bad enough but one drawer at a time would make it even worse!
Batch making seems to be unfashionable - I blame the arts n crafts movement and the elevation of the idea of artist/craftsman. Not a good working model. If a thing is any good why not make ten+ of them at a time?

 

[David C]

Richard,

I recall the COSIRA document, but could not remember the details.

Very interesting post. Thank you.

David

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Thanks Richard. Those are indeed the figures I was trying to recall.

There is an apples and oranges issue in this discussion.

Shortcuts in building drawers, such as gang sawing the tails, sawing past the baseline, or wacking out the waste with a single hammer blow (try that in hardwood recently?), can compromise the quality of the finished product. Would you expend the same time and use the same strategy on a drawer for a piece that costs £100, £1000, and £10000?

An amateur, such as myself, approaches all drawers as if they cost either £100 or £10000. Time and effort is accorded on this basis. Using a dovetail marking gauge is not a waste of time, but an attempt to be precise. I imagine a professional will treat this quite differently as time is money. The amateur, who seeks to emulate a professional's methods because this is how the latter works, is missing the point that there are some shortcuts that are unnecessary since time does not need to be saved. The professional, who expects the amateur to emulate his methods, is missing the fact that time is not an issue for the latter.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[bugbear]

Thanks Richard. Those are indeed the figures I was trying to recall.

There is an apples and oranges issue in this discussion.

Shortcuts in building drawers, such as gang sawing the tails, sawing past the baseline, or wacking out the waste with a single hammer blow (try that in hardwood recently?), can compromise the quality of the finished product. Would you expend the same time and use the same strategy on a drawer for a piece that costs £100, £1000, and £10000?

An amateur, such as myself, approaches all drawers as if they cost either £100 or £10000. Time and effort is accorded on this basis. Using a dovetail marking gauge is not a waste of time, but an attempt to be precise. I imagine a professional will treat this quite differently as time is money. The amateur, who seeks to emulate a professional's methods because this is how the latter works, is missing the point that there are some shortcuts that are unnecessary since time does not need to be saved. The professional, who expects the amateur to emulate his methods, is missing the fact that time is not an issue for the latter.

Regards from Perth

Derek

An amateur might perform a task a particular way simply because it brings more pleasure. The time constrained professional does not have such freedom.

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

An amateur might perform a task a particular way simply because it brings more pleasure. The time constrained professional does not have such freedom.

BugBear

Agreed.

I think this is a useful and interesting discussion.
As an amateur who often does choose a slow way just because it's more fun, I am also keen to understand other, quicker methods.

There is always a choice of methods!

 

[Racers]

If I am doing dovetails for my self then I hand cut them, for someone else I am likely to gang cut them with the band saw.

Pete

 

[bugbear]

Not a good working model. If a thing is any good why not make ten+ of them at a time?

If my granny asks me to make her a foot stool, the required number is 1. Making 10 would be pointless.

People doing woodwork to make money may have other priorities.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

If I am doing dovetails for my self then I hand cut them, for someone else I am likely to gang cut them with the band saw.

Pete

I've tried "gang" cutting a stack of drawer sides both by hand and by band saw. It's actually bloody difficult to do accurately, keeping a stack precisely aligned along one edge and end, and to do a perpendicular cut. Even harder by hand to do a neat saw cut through a stack. Is there a secret?
I don't think it's viable myself.
I've looked at a lot of old drawers and I think the sides and pinholes were always done as a pair.

 

[AndyT]

I've tried "gang" cutting a stack of drawer sides both by hand and by band saw. It's actually bloody difficult to do accurately, keeping a stack precisely aligned along one edge and end, and to do a perpendicular cut. Even harder by hand to do a neat saw cut through a stack. Is there a secret?

I've mentioned it before, but Jacob, have a look at this video, which I think you will like. He pins a pair of sides together - which leaves a couple of tiny holes afterwards, not noticed by the user of the drawer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SKZNHS3Jrg

 

[David C]

All bandsaws are not equal. My Robinson, with home made Lignum guides and meat and fish blade, is very good indeed.

I have done pairs of sides with masking Tape.

Once did six sides, using tiny drops of superglue gel in the waste, but a two sided jig was needed to line them up!

David

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I've tried "gang" cutting a stack of drawer sides both by hand and by band saw ... I don't think it's viable myself.

It's possible to do Jacob. The maximum number of sides I can recall ganging together and sawing by hand is five pairs. I think I've only ever done that many once or twice, and typically for me that means a stack between about 80 - 100 mm wide because for that kind of drawer with slips the sides I make are normally something like 8 or 10 mm thick. It does require some patience and a sharp rip tooth pattern dovetail saw or tenon saw. Gang sawing a large stack is one of the occasions where I almost always go to the trouble of marking out the position of the tails, their rake, and a line across the end grain to help guide the saw. More normally I've found you end up gang sawing two or three pairs of sides because it's rare in my experience to have more than this number of drawers the same height in a cabinet.

I can't recall very often gang sawing a stack on a bandsaw, but that's mainly because the bandsaw usually needed some tuning up and a decent blade installing, which I judged might take more time to fiddle with than it would just to do the job by hand. However, if the bandsaw is in good nick that too works. Slainte.

 

[Jacob]

I've tried "gang" cutting a stack of drawer sides both by hand and by band saw. It's actually bloody difficult to do accurately, keeping a stack precisely aligned along one edge and end, and to do a perpendicular cut. Even harder by hand to do a neat saw cut through a stack. Is there a secret?

I've mentioned it before, but Jacob, have a look at this video, which I think you will like. He pins a pair of sides together - which leaves a couple of tiny holes afterwards, not noticed by the user of the drawer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SKZNHS3Jrg

Interesting. An hour per drawer - that's more like it! Sawing a pair is fine, freehand with a DT saw you don't even need to pin them if you hold them in the vice and just align them by eye. But you might need to pin them if using a bandsaw, and a bigger stack starts to get really fiddly, verging on the impossible - hence Dave's 2 sided jig.

PS Hmm, 2 sided jig and the bandsaw? Faster and faster!
Speed isn't only about speed - it's about being able to allocate more time to things which matter more and gives you more control over the finished item.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Shortcuts in building drawers, such as gang sawing the tails, sawing past the baseline, or wacking out the waste with a single hammer blow (try that in hardwood recently?), can compromise the quality of the finished product. Would you expend the same time and use the same strategy on a drawer for a piece that costs £100, £1000, and £10000?

I agree that just whacking out the waste is a strategy that isn't always possible. It depends on the hardness of the wood and if it's ring porous. Maple isn't too difficult, oak can be tricky because of the hard/soft nature. Mahogany is easy and poplar is a doddle. Pine can be a bit tricky, etc.

As to when to gang saw, or whack out the waste quickly I've done both many times on more expensive work over the years, but not always. It depends on the job and how amenable the material is to such techniques. There have been times when I've made utilitarian pieces that didn't need to be especially posh and had to take a more individual approach to each drawer. I will say, however, that I almost invariably gang saw (at minimum) a pair of drawer sides. I can't recall when I last sawed all four ends of a pair of drawer sides individually - many years ago I think. Slainte.

 

[Racers]

If I am doing dovetails for my self then I hand cut them, for someone else I am likely to gang cut them with the band saw.

Pete

I've tried "gang" cutting a stack of drawer sides both by hand and by band saw. It's actually bloody difficult to do accurately, keeping a stack precisely aligned along one edge and end, and to do a perpendicular cut. Even harder by hand to do a neat saw cut through a stack. Is there a secret?
I don't think it's viable myself.
I've looked at a lot of old drawers and I think the sides and pinholes were always done as a pair.

I clamped then together with a couple of clamps in the middle so I could spin them round and do both ends.
A Startrite 352 with roller bearing guides makes short work of 6 X 12mm birch ply sides.

Pete

 

[David C]

Well, that video was fun, but the glue up was a disaster in my opinion.

A damp rag spreads glue into the grain where it interferes with any future finishing.

A little planing will ensure that excess glue gets pushed to the exterior.

Squareness is best checked by comparing the length of the diagonals.

David Charlesworth