Dovetail Saw- new or vintage?

[inandout]

Having recently taught myself to sharpen a dovetail saw (using various links from these forums) my questions are, if I tune up an old vintage dovetail saw will it ever be as good as a Wenzloff, Lie Nielsen Adria etc. Is there any inherent deficiency in the metal of vintage saws compared to modern day ones. Is there a particular vintage maker (pistol grip) that is recommended?

Thanks.

Andrew

 

[neilyweely]

I believe there are folk here who will disagree with me but I asked a friend
who is a college tutor (carpentry and bench joinery) about picking up an old S and J or Diston saw, and he steered me well away for precisely the reason you stated.
Apparently the steel used in the old chisels etc is superior to the new ones, but as far as saws are concerned he said the new hardpoint saws are better and cheaper than the old ones. Of all the tutors at the college he is the one with the most experience, and although this is doubtless an opinion (and a controversial one at that) it must bear some weight.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Suspect your chum was thinking about Japanese saws - disposable, brrom stick handle, cut backwards. They're fashionable. Not Tetley's.

Andrew, since you can sharpen the saw, durability is a none issue. After the first sharpening, I don't see that there would be any difference - then it's just whether you like the feel of the handle.
The main thing would be finding an example where the plate hadn't been too badly abused

 

[bugbear]

Having recently taught myself to sharpen a dovetail saw (using various links from these forums) my questions are, if I tune up an old vintage dovetail saw will it ever be as good as a Wenzloff, Lie Nielsen Adria etc.

Probably not as good as a new saw, fresh from the makers; all 3 are beautifully sharpened. However, after the first resharpen you do, it's now you, not them, and things are more equal. None of them offer (AFAIK) a resharpening service.

Is there any inherent deficiency in the metal of vintage saws compared to modern day ones. Is there a particular vintage maker (pistol grip) that is recommended?

I'm assuming you mean Western (European) DT saws; no, the steel is very similar. In terms of old saws, look for a comfortable handle (easy to evaluate, at least in person), and a straight blade (very hard to fix). Beware of loose handles, although this can be remedied.

A GOOD vintage DT saw at car boot should be 10 quid (max); 20 quid online from a specialist dealer. This is a huge saving over the brands you mention.

If you're patient, you may get a bargain; this was a quid, although I did restore it ...

BugBear

 

[kenneth cooke]

The picture you posted looks like a lovely old saw but they cannot match the performance of the modern super saws now available. Last year I bought a Lei- Neilsen dovetail saw and a Lei- Neilsen small carcass saw. They are superb and i would not be without them. Also the dovetail saw is sharpened from the factory and set for rip cut which is the true orientation of dovetails. Most older saws were sharpened and set cross cut which is the wrong orientation.

By all means I would sharpen your old saw and set it cross cut for use as a small carcass saw and buy one of the modern supersaws. David Charleswoth has reviewed many of these saws in his book

 

[Joe]

I'd like to reiterate Bugbear's point: sooner or later you are going to have to sharpen your Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw and then it will be no better than a good vintage saw that you've also sharpened yourself.

As for hardpoint saws, they last longer but you can't modify the tooth geometry to suit your purposes and once they're dull you have to chuck them away (or turn them into scrapers). I dislike the idea of disposable tools.

Joel

 

[bugbear]

As for hardpoint saws

I've never seen a western European style hard point dovetail saw...

BugBear

 

[Anonymous]

My experience (await the people who decry this) is that old saws are not as good as the manufacturers you mention and will not remain sharp fpr as long, probably have slightly bent or pitted blades which can cause them to 'grab' during the cut, and cost only £10-20 + some time sharpening them.
I would not buy an old saw again.

For that matter, old chisels are not as good as modern AIs, LNs, Bluesprce etc., and old planes are not as good LNs, LVs and Cliftons.


I don't have a pair of rose tinted spectacles, I buy tools to use, not because I have an interest in tools or collecting them, and manufacturing processe and materials understanding has moved on somewhat in the last 10 years, never mind the last 100

Older kit is usually cheaper, and works fine though.

 

[bugbear]

The picture you posted looks like a lovely old saw but they cannot match the performance of the modern super saws now available. Last year I bought a Lei- Neilsen dovetail saw and a Lei- Neilsen small carcass saw. They are superb and i would not be without them. Also the dovetail saw is sharpened from the factory and set for rip cut which is the true orientation of dovetails. Most older saws were sharpened and set cross cut which is the wrong orientation.

Well, any saw "as found" is likely to be dirty and fairly blunt; further (as you say) some old saws were sharpened cross cut, although by no means all. Saws in this condition are clearly inferior to the "super" saws you mention.

However, since I taught myself the skill, a saw that I have sharpened has the teeth how I want them, at least within the limits of my skill.

And any of the saws you mention will also be limited by my skill after the first resharpen.

So where does this performance difference come from?

BugBear

 

[Racers]

Hi,

In the old days they didn't know (or understand) how to make tools cheaply so the quality was better, now they know how to engineer things only just good enough, most tools are rubbish, giving room for TLN etc to produce good tools matching the old stuff if not exceeding it in some cases (fancy steel chisels etc) but saws are just a piece of O1 Steel with teeth filled in so I don't see why they can't compare. And as Bugbear says you get to learn a new skill. I wounder who is going to sharpen the LN etc saws?


Pete

 

[Joe]

I've never seen a western European style hard point dovetail saw...

BugBear

Good point (forgive the pun). I think all hardened, western style back saws are described as tenon saws aren't they?

For that matter, old chisels are not as good as modern AIs, LNs, Bluesprce etc., and old planes are not as good LNs, LVs and Cliftons.

I'm not convinced this comparison is really valid. Whereas modern chisels might be made with better steel (such as A2) and have superior flatness (as supplied from the factory), and modern planes can have all sorts of advantages (ductile iron, flatter soles, squarer sides, more stable frogs, etc.), I can't see how you can really improve on an old Disston saw (for example) in good condition, other than using better quality steel. But do we know this to be the case? Afterall, a Disston saw blade has a similar Rockwell C rating to a Lie-Nielsen.

Joel

p.s. Mind you Tony, if I was given the choice between a brand new LN saw and a vintage saw, FOC, I think I know which one I'd go for...

 

[kenneth cooke]

I take Joe's point but I would say to Joe- Have you tried one of these new breed of saws?. I have and there is no comparison with vintage saws the new ones are in another league. And yes, vintage planes are only superior to modern mass produced ones because of the seasoning and quality of the casting used hence they remain flat once lapped. but I would always install one of the new breed of iron into any vintage plane

If money were not a consideration I would happily re stock my workshop with modern equivalents of vintage tools.

I would keep the old tools because of their link to the past and the thought of the craftsmen that have used them before me.

I was lucky enough to get hold of a 1914 Stanley USA Bedrock 604c last year in near mint condition. The brazilian rosewood handle and tote are magnificent and the sole needed very little lapping. I did however fit it out with a new Ray Illes iron

 

[Joe]

If money were not a consideration I would happily re stock my workshop with modern equivalents of vintage tools.

I would keep the old tools because of their link to the past and the thought of the craftsmen that have used them before me.

I'm largely in agreement with you on both those points Kenneth. The only other issue that I think is a consideration in relation to using old tools is an environmental one - i.e. less energy consumed in recycling something than making a new one (and importing it). But I'm certainly a fan of well made modern hand tools!

Joel

 

[Anonymous]

.

I would keep the old tools because of their link to the past and the thought of the craftsmen that have used them before me.

I think this sums it up nicely., old tools are not better than good quality modern tolls (often extremely inferior), but they have a history and a romance about them (I have some 1830s hollows and rounds that I absolutely love), and they are cheaper

I do not consider the fact that they are cheaper to necessarily be a plus though as I will be using the tools for (hopefully) another 30 years, and £200 on a LN plane with a lifetime guarantee seems a pitiful amount for 30 years use and enjoyment (and they hold their price or actually increase in price :shock: on ebay :wink: )

 

[bugbear]

My experience (await the people who decry this) is that old saws are not as good as the manufacturers you mention and will not remain sharp fpr as long, probably have slightly bent or pitted blades which can cause them to 'grab' during the cut, and cost only £10-20 + some time sharpening them.
I would not buy an old saw again.

There are indeed saws in the condition you mention, and I wouldn't buy them either.

On staying sharp, I have the "interesting" experience of sharpening a vintage hand saw that consumed 3 files in the process, it was tempered so hard; I suspect it will stay sharp longer than a LN; saw hardness is (was) always a compromise between ease (possibility!) of sharpeneing and edge retention.

With one collectible exception, bought for a friend, I have never paid more than 5 GBP for a good condition saw.

Of course, all this is predicated on having the skill to sharpen, which (as a reminder) the OP explicitly stated he had acquired.

Consider your points decried.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

I've never seen a western European style hard point dovetail saw...

BugBear

Good point (forgive the pun). I think all hardened, western style back saws are described as tenon saws aren't they?

I think they ARE tenon saws; I've never seen a modern hard point western saw below 12", and above 12 TPI.

BugBear

 

[Joe]

I think they ARE tenon saws; I've never seen a modern hard point western saw below 12", and above 12 TPI.

BugBear

I was equivocating because I imagine that these hardened saws are mostly sharpened for cross cutting, whilst I would have thought that rip teeth would be better in general for cutting tenons.

Joel

 

[Benchwayze]

As for hardpoint saws

I've never seen a western European style hard point dovetail saw...

BugBear

I have seen those god-awful, plastic handled 'backsaws' available in hardpoint. Like the hardpoint panel saws, they save a lot of downtime on site-work. So maybe that's what the mentor was talking about. I can't comment on people I don't know, but generally a woodwork teacher should appreciate the difference between a dovetail saw and a tenon saw.

Unless you send your modern saw back to the makers for sharpening, eventually it will be just like an older saw, but hopefully with a brighter plate. But you can take your LN etc., straight out of the packaging and start using it.

If you want a new saw, buy a good one. If you are happy with a good, old saw, then go for one from Oldtools or some-such firm.

Cheers
John

 

[Anonymous]

Consider your points decried.

BugBear

Unfortunately, I don't consider them decried by your comments BB.

The reason is that from postings on here and conversations I have heard about, it appears to be the case that you do not actually make much (anything?) and have an interest in collecting and restoring old tools simply becasue you like old tools, rather than to use them in earnest.
Clearly, a person form this perspective is not going to agree that modern tools are superior to their beloved old tools.

My interest is purely in using good quality tools to make furniture and I don't want to spend ages trying to make them work (some of my tools are old, and some new). My experience over the past 15+ years is that in general old tools are not as good as decent quality new ones such as LV, LN Clifton, Adria, Wenzloff etc. etc. and usually require considerable effort just to get them working reasonably well.

Rose tinted spectacles are fine, but progress is generally forward, improving things. Would you rather live in the technology of the 1800s or post 2000?

 

[Benchwayze]

Well Tony,
I can't comment just yet. I am in the queue for a Wenzloff!
For now, I am using an old cross-cut Gent's saw, with a few miles before it needs a sharpen. I am assuming it will be blown out of the water by the Wenzloff. I wouldn't mind sharpening my old Spear and Jackson, but my eyesight needs an overhaul. If I can find a good magnifier, I might give that a try, to keep me going until my Wenzloff is here. Then I can compare.

(I tried the Japanese saws, but couldn't get used to the pull-cut, and short of relocating the handle I find them not much use to me.

Although a Japanese woodworker has evolved a jig to use them as a 'hand operated sawbench'. Work that one out!

Apparently he mounts the saw upside down in a jig and slides the cramped work back and forth across the saw. (I wonder if he got the idea from a certain saw-handle maker we know!)

Anyhow, he is going live on this soon, so the ads will be online shortly I have no doubt.


Regards
John