Dovetail Questions

[Peter Sefton]

The teeth should cut on the back stroke as a Japanese saw to keep the blade in tension.

Not true if (and only if, mark you) the frame is stiff enough. A stiff frame puts enough tension
on that you can quite happily cut on the push stroke, without the blade going slack (with
all the trouble that causes).

BugBear

BB i am surprised you say that, Here is a video of setting up a saw blade. Not that I am saying you need to buy one as expensive as this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMJtK93agQ0

Peter

 

[Peter Sefton]

Nice video, but I would urge the OP not to push the chisel all the way through from one face to the other on the tail board. There's no decent fix for a blowout or compression at the far baseline. Pare to a centre mound a la Ian Kirby and then remove it to a state of flatness.

And the video is a good reminder that one will have to chop anyway, at least when doing lap dovetails. The through joint is the only one in which chopping can be avoided on both halves of the joint.

You're gonna' have to do it anyway, might as well learn how to do it right....

You are right only chiisel to the centre and then from the other side unless you have very good chisel control.

Cheers Peter

 

[Billy Flitch]

Thats a great saw,I`ll have to get one of them.I don't know how I`v managed without one, how much is it?

 

[Trafalgar]

Robt. Wearing recommends setting a coping saw to cut on the push stroke. The cut line is not obscured and the action is familiar assuming one uses other Western saws that cut on the push stroke.

Any decent flat-bar coping saw can cope with cutting on the push stroke - S&J, Olson, et al.

Sorry for the pun, couldn't resist.

 

[Trafalgar]

Nice video, but I would urge the OP not to push the chisel all the way through from one face to the other on the tail board. There's no decent fix for a blowout or compression at the far baseline. Pare to a centre mound a la Ian Kirby and then remove it to a state of flatness.

And the video is a good reminder that one will have to chop anyway, at least when doing lap dovetails. The through joint is the only one in which chopping can be avoided on both halves of the joint.

You're gonna' have to do it anyway, might as well learn how to do it right....

You are right only chiisel to the centre and then from the other side unless you have very good chisel control.

Cheers Peter

And perhaps even if you do...

 

[Peter Sefton]

In light of Mr Wearings book a may need to change my advice, you can buy 2 sets of blades for under £6.00.

If you are using your Piercing saw for cutting marquetry over a base board, may wish to turn your blade around so that the teeth point towards to handle and cut on the down stroke.

Cheers Peter

 

[Jacob]

Have a look at my tenon saw suggestion above. It does work and is easier than a coping saw. I'm pretty certain the the old makers wouldn't have fiddled about with coping saws. Back saws and chisels only.

 

[bugbear]

The teeth should cut on the back stroke as a Japanese saw to keep the blade in tension.

Not true if (and only if, mark you) the frame is stiff enough. A stiff frame puts enough tension
on that you can quite happily cut on the push stroke, without the blade going slack (with
all the trouble that causes).

BugBear

BB i am surprised you say that, Here is a video of setting up a saw blade. Not that I am saying you need to buy one as expensive as this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMJtK93agQ0

Peter

He does indeed fix the blade in for a pull stroke, but he does (also) say that this applies to all of the saws
except the coping saw. it is (of course) normal to cut on the pull stroke when used a birds mouth
for cutting out shapes (e.g. jewellers or fret saw).

A coping saw is analagous to a (small) bow or turning saw that was used for similar purposes in earlier times,
and these were always set to cut on the push stroke, with the blade tension to suit.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

And the video is a good reminder that one will have to chop anyway, at least when doing lap dovetails. The through joint is the only one in which chopping can be avoided on both halves of the joint.

You're gonna' have to do it anyway, might as well learn how to do it right....

I'm not sure that logic i completely sound. If it were, one would always cut grooves with saw, chisel and hand router, since that's
how you're going to have to do it in some situations were the groove is stopped, or access is restricted.

But the sensible worker will use the plough plane where possible, 'cos it's easier.

No-one chisels when cross cutting to length, and I see no reason why cross-cutting the waste
from a dovetail should be different.

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

And the video is a good reminder that one will have to chop anyway, at least when doing lap dovetails. The through joint is the only one in which chopping can be avoided on both halves of the joint.

You're gonna' have to do it anyway, might as well learn how to do it right....

I'm not sure that logic i completely sound. If it were, one would always cut grooves with saw, chisel and hand router, since that's
how you're going to have to do it in some situations were the groove is stopped, or access is restricted.

But the sensible worker will use the plough plane where possible, 'cos it's easier.

No-one chisels when cross cutting to length, and I see no reason why cross-cutting the waste
from a dovetail should be different.

BugBear

So we're using a coping saw on the tail board of a drawer built to a fine British cabinetmaking standard -- about 3/8" thick to a half at most. Then the chisel is (must) be brought to bear on the pin board ( the drawer front) which is 7/8ths maybe 3/4ths ? Even in oak, the tail board waste is gone in only a couple or three chops from either side and end grain.

I don't see any fault in the logic of chopping the tail board waste at all, nor have the innumerable cabinetmakers who've done it this way for centuries.

The analogy of chopping a groove vs. running one with a plane misses the mark. A more apt analogy would be would you use a chisel to make a short 1" groove or trench, or attempt to have a plane do the job? Well, the chisel is easier in this instance just as it is when removing a mere 3/8" thick pin core from the tailboard of a dovetailed drawer.

 

[Trafalgar]

In light of Mr Wearings book a may need to change my advice, you can buy 2 sets of blades for under £6.00.

If you are using your Piercing saw for cutting marquetry over a base board, may wish to turn your blade around so that the teeth point towards to handle and cut on the down stroke.

Cheers Peter

If using a fretsaw as I think you do, just get spiral blades that cut on the push, pull, sideways and everything in between:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.a ... 42904&ap=1

Surely, removing a pin core from a thin drawer side (tail board) with a saw isn't cause for a whole lot of kerfuffle about tooling, brand, and choice of blades is it -- assuming one even feels the need to saw in the first place. It's a little hard to believe that 3/8" thick material should be the cause of much heartburn. The truth of the matter is that practically the worst coping saw/blade combination in the world can deal with the tiny pin cores in thin drawer side material. Coping 10" crown moulding might call for a better saw and blades.

This also might all be quite another issue if we're talking about casework dovetails in a gnarly 1" thick tropical species with grain swirling every which way.

 

[G S Haydon]

I've always used a coping saw on the pull, I know plenty who have pushed too. Pulling it "feels" right and logical to me and my blades last very well. This makes a welcome change from a "sharpening" debate :lol:

 

[bugbear]

I've always used a coping saw on the pull, I know plenty who have pushed too. Pulling it "feels" right and logical to me and my blades last very well. This makes a welcome change from a "sharpening" debate :lol:

Just wait till we get to "tails first" vs "pins first"

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

I've always used a coping saw on the pull, I know plenty who have pushed too. Pulling it "feels" right and logical to me and my blades last very well. This makes a welcome change from a "sharpening" debate :lol:

It often does but in this instance is almost hard to tell since the operation is over so fast, no? One might really form a preference if fretting for hours on end only to say to hell with it and use spiral blades and put the whole issue to rest.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

If using a fretsaw as I think you do, just get spiral blades that cut on the push, pull, sideways and everything in between:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.a ... 42904&ap=1

You can even make your own from a bit of steel wire, as I recently watched Sean Helman demonstrate. very quick and effective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwKq4w8wpJk

 

[Trafalgar]

If using a fretsaw as I think you do, just get spiral blades that cut on the push, pull, sideways and everything in between:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.a ... 42904&ap=1

You can even make your own from a bit of steel wire, as I recently watched Sean Helman demonstrate. very quick and effective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwKq4w8wpJk

I think Frank Klausz has his version, a macro version, with which he cuts cheeks and baseline all without removing the saw from the kerf. AKA "The Saw."

Cool video!

 

[G S Haydon]

Charles I will confess that most of my coping is on removing waste within a tenon on wide (house scale) door rails to form haunches, cornice (crown moulding), glazing bars and skirting. All a bit chunky and less refined than cabinet stuff. I would agree on thin stock you'd hardly notice a difference with whatever you chose to do.

BB, perhaps haunch or franked would be more apt for someone in my position

 

[Peter Sefton]

Charles I will confess that most of my coping is on removing waste within a tenon on wide (house scale) door rails to form haunches, cornice (crown moulding), glazing bars and skirting. All a bit chunky and less refined than cabinet stuff. I would agree on thin stock you'd hardly notice a difference with whatever you chose to do.

BB, perhaps haunch or franked would be more apt for someone in my position

Graham I agree these are the only time I ever use a coping saw, as I said before a coping saw would be to wide to fit into my Dovetail saw kerf.

I am sure that the chopping out of the waste between tails must work for some but I feel it would wedge and bruise my tails. For the finest Dovetails when your Dovetail saw starts from the same kerf cut the waste is so fine at the shoulder line that only a 1.5mm chisel will fit and you wouldn't want to hit that with a mallet!

Just to clarify I have been talking about a Piercing or Jeweller saw for our fine dovetails.

Cheers Peter

 

[bugbear]

Charles I will confess that most of my coping is on removing waste within a tenon on wide (house scale) door rails to form haunches, cornice (crown moulding), glazing bars and skirting. All a bit chunky and less refined than cabinet stuff. I would agree on thin stock you'd hardly notice a difference with whatever you chose to do.

BB, perhaps haunch or franked would be more apt for someone in my position

Graham I agree these are the only time I ever use a coping saw, as I said before a coping saw would be to wide to fit into my Dovetail saw kerf.

I am sure that the chopping out of the waste between tails must work for some but I feel it would wedge and bruise my tails. For the finest Dovetails when your Dovetail saw starts from the same kerf cut the waste is so fine at the shoulder line that only a 1.5mm chisel will fit and you wouldn't want to hit that with a mallet!

Just to clarify I have been talking about a Piercing or Jeweller saw for our fine dovetails.

Cheers Peter

I'll just post to remind people of "a way" to remove the waste when your DT kerfs are finer than your coping
saw;

(numbers are the sequence of cuts, at least for a right handed person)

So very many ways to skin a cat, should you have an interest in a cat skin coat.

BugBear

 

[DannyEssex]

Thats how I have been using my coping saw BB, and then paring away the small leftover bit I the middle.