Domino or Jessem's creation.....

[clogs]

bored and found this on the tube.....3hrs old.....

I wont buy the Domino, not enough time in my life to get my money back........
cheapest I found the 500 is £700 new........
Besides have done well enough all these years without.....
This Festool tool is just overpriced to me....



let the poo hit the fan........lol........

 

[Spectric]

That Jessem has been around a while, I doubt it will have much impact on Domino 500 sales as although it is a clever bit of engineering from Jessem it does require more marking out and is not as simple as the domino for making the oblong dowel holes. For me the issue I do not think it addresses is the location issues I have with the 700 and if going down this route then the Woodrat is the better tool and that can do a lot more than that Jessem mill.

 

[frankendoodle65]

If I saw that before buying my Domino I probably would have considered it, but now I'm not exactly tempted to rush out and sell my Domino(s) to get one of these! The jessem looks slow and fiddly, and to be honest I've already forgotten how much I spent on the DF500 (or I don't want to think about it!). Buy once cry once I guess.

@Spectric I know you've mentioned it before but do you mind talking me through your issues with the DF700 please? I've just bought a second hand one because I've got a few larger projects coming up and I got a good deal. Not had a chance to use it properly yet besides testing that it works, just wondering what your issue is so I know what to look out for!

 

[Spectric]

The problem I have is getting alignment, using a pencil line can be ok but working from the domino pins is better. I find all my results are better if I use the sloppy setting but to me this is not correct as having been in engineering all my working life you don't drill oversized holes in order to get a fixing through and also having been a dowel user where I get good results with certainty every time then there should be no reason for introducing an elongated oblong hole. If I use my FC tools alignment jig then the results are great and without the sloppy setting so I have concluded that Festool by scaling up the 500 domino to produce the 700 has resulted in a large and clumsy machine where it is all to easy to get alignment issues. I am currently only using dowels again as I do not trust my 700 enough especially with the current price of wood but am looking to make a version of @ola c 's domino bench with the flip fence which should resolve all my domino issues once and for all.

 

[frankendoodle65]

Thanks Spectric, sounds like it's just a difference in philosophy then. Working to a pencil line has never been an issue for me, and using the sloppy setting where appropriate doesn't worry me either. I'm viewing the DF700 as a handheld mortiser, for some of my projects I won't even use loose tenons but cut traditional tenons on the bandsaw - haven't decided if I'll round the tenons or square up the mortises yet, but either way the Domino will save me a lot of time and effort.

 

[MikeK]

I have the DF500 and DF700, but use the 500 most of the time. I never had an alignment problem with either machine and rarely use the "sloppy" setting when using alignment marks to join long slabs. On the few jobs where I did use the wide setting, the vertical alignment of the slabs was perfect and the additional side to side play in the tenon didn't affect (as much as I can tell) the integrity of the joint. It's easy to blame the bow or arrow, but sometimes it's the archer that is at fault.

 

[sammy.se]

I'm a DIYer. The domino is by far my most expensive tool by a factor of 3x.
But, I love it. It makes it a joy to put wood together and it's accurate enough for my purposes. Having looked at the Jessem:

1) it's still expensive
2) such a faff.

If I didn't have my domino, I'd invest in a decent, inexpensive dowel jig. Not the jessem

 

[clogs]

Spectric.......what model of woodrat pls.....

 

[baldkev]

Hi clogs, in terms ofbearning its money, it kinda doesn't have to.... on ebay, people were actually selling df500s a couple of years old, for literally 700 quid. I paid 750 new why even bother buying 2nd hand???? 50 quid?

Next comes the obvious.... there are posts on here from people who have to justify their purchases to their owner but really speaking, they could just kit out in festool and demonstrate that the tools wont devalue......

 

[johnnyb]

I always buy used( machinery anyway) and tend to find the economics work the same. I did use the 14mm domino connectors on a job and was quite happy with the outcome. introducing a domino with a connector does make assembly much harder. its not a bad idea overall. I do prefer dowels and bed bolts as they are very solid. but they are much more involved.

 

[Dave Moore]

The problem I have is getting alignment, using a pencil line can be ok but working from the domino pins is better. I find all my results are better if I use the sloppy setting but to me this is not correct as having been in engineering all my working life you don't drill oversized holes in order to get a fixing through and also having been a dowel user where I get good results with certainty every time then there should be no reason for introducing an elongated oblong hole. If I use my FC tools alignment jig then the results are great and without the sloppy setting so I have concluded that Festool by scaling up the 500 domino to produce the 700 has resulted in a large and clumsy machine where it is all to easy to get alignment issues. I am currently only using dowels again as I do not trust my 700 enough especially with the current price of wood but am looking to make a version of @ola c 's domino bench with the flip fence which should resolve all my domino issues once and for all.

Yes the sloppy setting sounds like a bodge and doesn’t encourage one to use a tape carefully.

 

[simonh]

I own nearly everything Jessem makes, love the quality of their stuff. I also own Festool Domino.

I'm sort of on the fence about this one. The Domino is fast, so anyone in the production shop will want the Domino. So, the Jessem is for hobbyists, but there are many alternative techniques if you're doing it by hand. So, a neat product, but maybe a niche market for people who think they are missing out by not having a domino?

I made a version of OlaC's domino jig (Woodpecker style MoritseMatch) that's great for using the Domino on small pieces.

 

[Spectric]

Spectric.......what model of woodrat pls.....

I got the WR900 and sat a Dewalt 625 on it with the plunge bar. I gets less use than I intended but it has got round some issues that makes it worth having.

 

[Spectric]

I made a version of OlaC's domino jig (Woodpecker style MoritseMatch) that's great for using the Domino on small pieces.

Does that black fence flip so it can be used on either side ? Who makes that black fence please .

I am looking at making a bigger version to handle larger frames and currently I am still thinking about the height adjustment, do I lower the workpiece or raise the cutter but will post more once I get there.

Yes the sloppy setting sounds like a bodge and doesn’t encourage one to use a tape carefully

For me it is like you have drilled a couple of holes to assemble two components and the screws don't go through the holes because they are slightly out so you just drill them both larger to overcome the mis-alignment which as you say is a bodge.

 

[frankendoodle65]

For me it is like you have drilled a couple of holes to assemble two components and the screws don't go through the holes because they are slightly out so you just drill them both larger to overcome the mis-alignment which as you say is a bodge.

In my previous post I said the sloppy setting is good "when appropriate" or something like that, can we just discuss that for a minute?

I don't think anyone is using the sloppy setting for a structural joint when making furniture - say between a stretcher and table leg. That would be silly, but you can use the reference pins/paddles and fence to get proper alignment here.

The sloppy setting is for carcass construction or edge jointing - for a plywood box you use the pins/paddles and tight setting to reference one or both ends, then mid panel joints can use the sloppy setting. Does the loss of strength from a "loose" joint cause any issues here? I doubt it, you've got your edges lined up nicely, the mid panel dominoes prevent the top/bottom from bowing and keep all edges lines up. Glue and/or screws keep everything together and solid.
For edge jointing the dominoes don't add any strength anyway, they're purely for alignment in the vertical plane so you get a flush top surface. All your strength comes from the long grain glue joint, the dominos are doing the same job that biscuits would, just an alignment aid. The sloppy setting can speed up the job and make life easier.


As MikeK said, it's entirely possible with a sharp pencil and careful measurement to do away with the sloppy setting entirely, no-one's forcing you to use it. I've made plenty of things with and without the sloppy mortises, I just use it to save a bit of hassle marking up when it's not critical to have the tight joint.

Let's go back in time a hundred years or so. You want to make a mortise and tenon joint. You use a marking gauge and a pencil/knife, maybe also a rule. Everything is marked up manually, cut by hand and fettled to fit. With similar care in layout and measuring the Domino can be an incredibly precise tool, but it still depends on some amount of skill in use. Use a CNC if you want to remove any chance of human error in measuring and layout!


Anyway as I said before, it's a difference in philosophy. Maybe we're just expecting different things from the tool. I used to have a bench top mortiser (got rid of it to save some workbench space) - that also required measuring/marking and working to a pencil line!

 

[sams93]

I'm a DIYer. The domino is by far my most expensive tool by a factor of 3x.
But, I love it. It makes it a joy to put wood together and it's accurate enough for my purposes. Having looked at the Jessem:

1) it's still expensive
2) such a faff.

If I didn't have my domino, I'd invest in a decent, inexpensive dowel jig. Not the jessem

This is exactly my stance too. I bought my DF500 used for under £400. I don't like that I spent that much money on it - but I always look at it as if I want to I can sell it for about the same as I bought it for, so I don't really loose anything by buying one to see how I get on with it and then deciding if to keep or not.

 

[Spectric]

The sloppy setting is for carcass construction or edge jointing - for a plywood box you use the pins/paddles and tight setting to reference one or both ends,

That is I assume using the 500, I believe the 500 would not give me the alignment issues but is no good for larger joints due to the shallow plunge depth in comparison to the 700.

 

[frankendoodle65]

That is I assume using the 500, I believe the 500 would not give me the alignment issues but is no good for larger joints due to the shallow plunge depth in comparison to the 700.

Sorry I'm just talking generally about the Dominos here.

Why would the 500 not have the same "issues"? You either use the reference pins/paddles or you use the line on the fence.
I've not used the 700 on a project yet but from playing with it (and plenty of research) the two tools clearly work in exactly the same way.
Try using a fine mechanical pencil and take a few seconds to line up carefully before cutting, there's no reason you can't use the machine this way assuming it was properly calibrated at the factory - if not then that's a warranty issue and can be fixed.

My point still stands that pretty much the entire history of woodworking relies upon working to some sort of line or mark - I've built plenty of furniture with handcut m&t joints before I got a bench top mortiser and now the Domino(s). I don't see any reason why someone with a Domino can't work to the same tolerances as someone with a chisel or a mortiser to make decent furniture. I'm struggling to understand what your "alignment issue" is beyond the fact that you don't like using a pencil?

 

[Spectric]

I've not used the 700 on a project yet but from playing with it (and plenty of research) the two tools clearly work in exactly the same way.

You need to take the weight and size into account plus the extra plunge depth of the 700.

I'm struggling to understand what your "alignment issue" is beyond the fact that you don't like using a pencil?

The alignment issue is that the joint when closed is not acceptable, I do not get the same issues with either my Dowelmax or Jessem so there is a problem and at the moment the solution is using my DAJ from FC tools which works great on sheet goods. Now if there are no issues with alignment and everyone is happy then why are there third party accessories, there should be no market for them especialy considering the cost.

The DAJ is £380 (NEW) Domino Alignment Jig XL System Deluxe; (900 LONG PLATE) - FC Tools

The Woodpecker version is £590 Woodpeckers Offset Base System for Festool Domino | Wood Workers Workshop

 

[frankendoodle65]

So the tool is too heavy for you and that means it's a bad tool? I don't fancy swinging around a petrol disc cutter or a breaker hammer but I'm not about to go complaining about them on the internet!

Excuse the state of the wood, I wasn't going to waste anything decent on this. Bear in mind I've had little practise with the df700, this took me about 5 minutes. Used the reference pins either end and pencil lines in the middle, that's 4 12x100 dominos in total. All four dominos on the tight setting - I'd love to prove that to you but I can't get this apart! Accidentally punched myself in my private gentleman area trying...

Pulled together with a clamp and the join line is seamless. Didn't even plane the edge first so I was expect some gaps to be honest! You can see my two pencil lines in the middle line up neatly. You'll just have to trust me it's 4 dominos on tight setting, I have nothing to gain from praising this tool just as you have nothing to gain from criticising it.

As for the availability of after market accessories, that doesn't prove anything! It's confirmation bias, you don't like the tool so you're using the existence of accessories to argue others don't like it either. Nonsense. We live in a consumerist society with companies trying to sell us stuff left right and centre, not to mention people love buying stuff!
Yes some accessories may make it easier or faster/more efficient, some may be useful for specific uses. Fantastic. I'm happy working to a pencil line.

Thanks for the debate anyway, it's given me an excuse to have a play with my new toy and I'm overjoyed with how easy to use and how precise it is, absolutely no alignment issues here.
Only issue as far as I can tell is how difficult it is to get a dry fit joint apart, I'll sand a few dummy Dominos for future dry fit use