Domino jointer instead of morticer and tenoner?

[murdoch]

We use a domino xl for all our kitchen face frames. We used to use a hoffman but found that the joints were a bit weak. The important thing is to spend some time making really good jigs. We have 2 sets as you'll need one for beaded frames and one for no bead. Our frames are 27mm thick and we use an 8 x 50 domino. These are placed of centre so that when you clamp the frames, you can shoot 2 20mm brads into each end of the domino from behind to hold the joint together. You need an xl machine as the jig we use has a fence that the domino cutter passes through so we set the depth to 65mm for a 25mm mortice.

Since we bought it a few years ago we haven't looked back. So much quicker than using a morticer and tenoner and way stronger than a hoffman but just as fast.

 

[Phil Sewell]

Thanks for everyone for taking the time to reply to my question. I can set up my machines quite quickly to cut mortice and tenons but as Adam says I can't compete with the domino.

My issues are (on the 500) lack of depth for the housing in the stiles if the stiles are 60mm and wider (but with modern glues my usual 2 thirds the width of the stile for the tenon probably isn't necessary). the other issue is the lack of flexibility with the width of the tenon (being governed by the width of the domino).

Having said all that these issues don't seem to be a problem for people and I haven't read a negative word about the domino so I'll probably get one. As I do such a variety of work hopefully it will open up different and more efficient ways of doing other things as well.

Thanks again.
Phil.

Murdoch I gather you keep the domino in a fixed position and offer the work up to the machine rather than holding it freehand (which is presumably how most people use them).

I'd very interested to see an image of your jig if you have the time.
Thanks.

 

[sploo]

My issues are (on the 500) lack of depth for the housing in the stiles if the stiles are 60mm and wider (but with modern glues my usual 2 thirds the width of the stile for the tenon probably isn't necessary). the other issue is the lack of flexibility with the width of the tenon (being governed by the width of the domino).

Consider the DF700 with the Seneca RTS-500 adaptor; that way you can also use the smaller DF500 bits.

The 700 is bigger and heavier, so if most of your work was smaller then the 500 would be the better choice - though I think the 700 has much better ergonomics.

Generally I'll plan a design with the Domino in mind, but it doesn't half make life easier not having to think about extra stock length for the tenon, or actually then milling the tenons and mortices. Don't get me wrong - a really nicely made thru-tenon on fine furniture is great, but the Domino just makes life so much easier for those jobs where you're not trying to expose tenons.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

For the price of a domino 500 you could buy a metal pantarouter with all of the templates. That would give you everything that the domino AND the domino XL can do, as well as Mortice and Tenon, finger joints, dovetails etc etc as well - and probably a little faster than a domino if you are doing bulk jobs - and linking to Custards point - you wouldn't be limited by the the fixed domino thicknesses.

If you really want a portable device, Stumpy Nubs has a build for a portable domino machine which looks pretty quick to make, and should come in under £150. That would be a cheap way of getting the equivilant of a domino XL sort of size.

I am *nearly* finished with my home build version of the Pantarouter XL - total spend will be £120-ish, but there is about 75 hours of work in it as well, so if I wasn't doing it fun, but professionally, it would make more sense to buy it.

I always enjoy watching Matthias and his inventions and I hope you enjoy the pantarouter, however I would be put off by they way is throws chips all over his workshop whenever I see him use it, probably the best thing about festool is their fantastic extraction on all tools

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

. the other issue is the lack of flexibility with the width of the tenon (being governed by the width of the domino).
.

This may be of some interest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9gQOoZpLAc I don't have a domino so can't comment but looks quite fast and repeatable.

Domino owners, do you buy the festool loose tenons or make your own? I have always been a bit sceptical of the impressed pattern on the festool ones, I know they explain this as somewhere for the glue to go but I have always been under the impression that the best joints are smooth and perfectly fitting with as much contact area as possible, this is certainly what I have always shot for with a saw and chisel. I can see if time is everything then buying them might make sense but it wouldn't take long to machine up a load.

I don't have a mortiser and use either a router on a woodrat or a chisel and a mallet for mortises, however I have three boats to fit out at the moment which will be a lot of doors and some new kitchen doors for my house and am seriously tempted to get the domino xl and seneca adapter. I notice someone is selling a copy of it (the seneca) on uk ebay for £45.

Has anyone tried the CMT bits for the domino? They are also advertised on the bay and are considerably cheaper than the festool ones. I've looked on the net but not found a review from anyone who has used them long term.

Paddy

 

[dzj]

A wedged M&T offers a mechanical fixing so if the glue fails the joint does not necessarily. A Domino only has the glue. I do not see the point in taking the risk.

+1
For cabinet carcasses, face frames, dust frames, wall paneling...for stuff that doesn't move, loose tenon joinery is fine.
For doors and windows, I take the traditional M&T route.
Some people use LTs for everything. It's faster, that's for sure.
Who knows, maybe they are right. Maybe in today's consumerist society things aren't meant
to last that long any more and they get replaced before the glue fails.

 

[Wuffles]

. the other issue is the lack of flexibility with the width of the tenon (being governed by the width of the domino).
.

Domino owners, do you buy the festool loose tenons or make your own? I have always been a bit sceptical of the impressed pattern on the festool ones, I know they explain this as somewhere for the glue to go but I have always been under the impression that the best joints are smooth and perfectly fitting with as much contact area as possible, this is certainly what I have always shot for with a saw and chisel. I can see if time is everything then buying them might make sense but it wouldn't take long to machine up a load.

They're pretty tight, in some grains they need tapping in, others you can get them in with a bit of a push. Into the end of ply they sometimes just slip in with no effort, depends on domino size.

Has anyone tried the CMT bits for the domino? They are also advertised on the bay and are considerably cheaper than the festool ones. I've looked on the net but not found a review from anyone who has used them long term.

Paddy

I've bought them, not had a need to use them yet, grabbed two of them from a CMT man I know but the original one is still going strong after about a thousand dominos. Luck of the draw though, my first cutter snapped after about a hundred - that's what made me go CMT expecting the next Festool one was going to last minutes too.

 

[shed9]

The cutters can be bought cheap enough if you buy the systainers full of dominoes. Depending on the kit you get a good selection of cutters much cheaper than buying them on their own.

 

[tomf]

Face frame is surly just pocket screw?

 

[chippy1970]

Face frame is surly just pocket screw?

Yeah I was gonna say that too

 

[Wuffles]

Do you two mean mounting or building face frames? I'm not sure I'd go to the trouble of using pocket screws to build a face frame and I think that's what we're talking about here.


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[Jelly]

I'd be fascinated to meet someone that can cut a mortise joint faster (and as accurately) as I can do with a domino using the bench to base reference method (i.e. you reference the domino off the bench rather than the piece, the piece must be clamped tight down though).

Chain morticer, jig & pneumatic clamping; no thought required.

These are still not fast enough however and CNC chisel mortices are now having an impact in the doors sector.

The domino is not the fastest or most accurate method, volume production equipment will always beat it... And I'd expect to be able to beat one for speed if several staff were operating preset SET and Morticer machines using jigs and doing runs of components... But, for one man to operate and set the two machines to do varying one off work, the domino should beat it.

In my limited experience (loads of windows and doors, nil face frames), it should be possible to get far more work out of the big static machines, but only by standardising size, materials and component design enough to make them in runs, because that's the most efficient way to use them.

 

[Doug B]

I imagine the pocket screw reference is for fixing the frame to the carcase as the pocket would be too long for standard sized frames to use in their construction.

There are quicker ways to construct face frames than using a domino, the Hoffmann system incorporating their "butterfly" being one. http://hoffmann-usa.com/dovetail-keys/d ... 9200600-W2

 

[RobinBHM]

Ive been wondering about getting a domino, so this thread is very interesting.

I wouldnt use it for doors as I have tooling that will do scribe and tenon in one hit. However I can see it would be useful for doors or windows which have awkward shapes, ie raked heads or trangular windows - would a domino work for these?

I suppose the quandry is I would need the larger domino for doors and frames for joinery and a small domino for face frames and other furniture. Do people end up buying both?

I do have a hoffman but they dont make a very strong joint and set up isnt very quick. To make a one off face we just screw and plug at the moment, but Im sure a domino would be quicker.

 

[Wuffles]

I imagine the pocket screw reference is for fixing the frame to the carcase as the pocket would be too long for standard sized frames to use in their construction.

No I get that, I just think there was some confusion leaking into the thread from TomF and was trying to clarify as Chris had jumped in too.

There are quicker ways to construct face frames than using a domino, the Hoffmann system incorporating their "butterfly" being one. http://hoffmann-usa.com/dovetail-keys/d ... 9200600-W2

What's one of those set you back? I'm not sure that's the argument either is it? Wasn't it about portability and other uses too...not that I have any idea about the machines you've linked.

 

[petermillard]

I think the OP was asking specifically about kitchen and wardrobe doors, carcasses and face-frames, as he was considering subbing for someone who uses a Domino extensively. This thread seems to have wandered off into a 2009-era throwback about wether the Domino can replace every method of joining two bits of wood together :shock:

 

[custard]

I wouldnt use it for doors as I have tooling that will do scribe and tenon in one hit. However I can see it would be useful for doors or windows which have awkward shapes, ie raked heads or trangular windows - would a domino work for these?

Good question.

You can jig up a Domino and use it for mortices in angled components (there are two threaded holes in the sole plate which are useful for securing the Domnino to the jig), here's an example,

But you're generally restricted to a mortice that's perpendicular to the face of the workpiece. That needs a bit of qualification, you can sometimes make an angled mortice, but because the plunge depth is quite small compared with a mortice machine (even on the XL) you'll normally be fairly restricted with an angled mortice when using a Domino.

Compare the above set up with this one, a compound angled mortice on a chair leg using a morticer.

You can see it's much easier to set up this joint on a morticer (after all the clamping is built into the machine) the fixturing arrangement is easier to set up, I can tell you from practical experience that it's easier to achieve high levels of accuracy, and you have a significantly deeper plunge facility so can handle more extreme angles.

As I said earlier, I'm a big fan of the Domino and use both machines regularly, but once you go off-piste with your furniture making into areas like compound angles and mortices in shaped pieces, then you'll find a traditional mortice machine much more versatile.

Good luck!

 

[Wuffles]

Best thing I ever did with my Domino was put some gripper tape around the "shaft". Oh, and a strip of it on the button. Slippery little s0d.

 

[tomf]

Why would you not use pocket holes to create the face frame?

 

[Wuffles]

Why would you not use pocket holes to create the face frame?

Using that logic, why not use a first fix nail gun and filler?

Nobody is denying it's feasible to use pocket screws, just why bother when the thread is about using a domino vs mortice & tenon.