Disc sander issues

[marcros]

They set their own manufacturing tolerances so it is hard to argue with. I would say that if it doesn't give you an acceptable result for a mitre joint then it isn't good enough.

 

[transatlantic]

0.5mm is probably within tolerance to be fair. Most people use velcro to attach their discs, which is going to have that amount of play all by itself.

You could account for the concave by maybe sticking a thin paper shim in the middle. But the woble is the more concerning part. I'll take a look at mine and see whats its like. It might give you some confidence in trying to get a replacement wheel. Assuming the wobble is in the disc.

 

[AJB Temple]

The correct answer, when an importer of Chinese goods, asks you how much run out there is: "far too much. It is unusable for accurate work and unacceptable. The tool is not fit for purpose".

 

[TheTiddles]

Just be aware you have no contract with Record, don’t be fobbed off with that one, the person who took your money is responsible for the performance of what they sold

Aidan

 

[transatlantic]

Just checked mine, and it does appear to have the same issues. I measured this with an adhesive disc attached though, so bear that in mind.

- My disc does have a slight dish in the center, about 0.5mm. I don't see this as an issue though as I generally only use half the disc, and the result after sanding some plywood is flat, no light when comparing against a straight edge.

- My disc does appear to have a slight wobble, again about 0.5mm.

These issues haven't affected me this far, so I am not going to worry about it, but I will bear it in mind.

 

[Bacms]

Just be aware you have no contract with Record, don’t be fobbed off with that one, the person who took your money is responsible for the performance of what they sold

Aidan

Thank you Aidan, I am aware but has been mentioned above I just trying to check this wasn't user error and therefore avoiding the pain of having to return it to the store given I don't own a car and despite my amazing physique carrying a 35Kg package for a half-mile journey is beyond my capabilities.

But I was probably making it more complicated than what it needs to be. I may be able to pack it and carry it over to the store on a wheeled luggage bag or failing that "borrow" a shopping trolley from the nearby supermarket

 

[marcros]

it is off topic for this discussion, but it must be hard for the manufacturers. a few decades ago, disc sanders were seriously expensive and massive bits of kit for large professional workshops. We now have a range of them starting at around £150 to say £250 aimed at various people including those using them for a hobby. I know that there have been advances and efficiencies in manufacturing, and in logistics etc, but accuracy and precision seems to cost more than they can justify spending on it. if they dont make something to put in the marketplace they lose a sale to a competitor, with the fairly significant risk that when the same buyer is looking for more equipment they are more familiar with the competitors offerings.

 

[Eshmiel]

it is off topic for this discussion, but it must be hard for the manufacturers. a few decades ago, disc sanders were seriously expensive and massive bits of kit for large professional workshops. We now have a range of them starting at around £150 to say £250 aimed at various people including those using them for a hobby. I know that there have been advances and efficiencies in manufacturing, and in logistics etc, but accuracy and precision seems to cost more than they can justify spending on it. if they dont make something to put in the marketplace they lose a sale to a competitor, with the fairly significant risk that when the same buyer is looking for more equipment they are more familiar with the competitors offerings.

Ha ha - very droll! Poor manufacturers are justified in selling dross to those they gull because otherwise they might not be able to make loadsa money and some proper manufacturer would get the dosh instead.

Let's all stop making proper furniture and rush down to Ikea to buy their chipboard saggggers in case Mr Ikea can't buy his next yacht on time.

Eshmiel

 

[marcros]

Ha ha - very droll! Poor manufacturers are justified in selling dross to those they gull because otherwise they might not be able to make loadsa money and some proper manufacturer would get the dosh instead.

Let's all stop making proper furniture and rush down to Ikea to buy their chipboard saggggers in case Mr Ikea can't buy his next yacht on time.

Eshmiel

That wasn't my point. My point is that the market demands these machines at a price point that a quality machine cannot be supplied for. You couldn't build the equivalent of an Axminster trade machine (currently 560 retail) and sell it for 200 retail. If you could they would reduce the spec and sell it for 100.

As for IKEA, the furniture may not last forever but it is sufficiently good for what it is designed for. Go and buy a dining table or a kitchen or a bed and they will be fit for purpose. You can eat your dinner, prepare your food, sleep in it accordingly. If a disc sander was make by IKEA, it would work perfectly well for 2-3 years and then let go rather than being poor to the point of being unusable from the beginning.

 

[Eshmiel]

That wasn't my point. My point is that the market demands these machines at a price point that a quality machine cannot be supplied for. You couldn't build the equivalent of an Axminster trade machine (currently 560 retail) and sell it for 200 retail. If you could they would reduce the spec and sell it for 100.

"The market" is not some natural phenomenon that "makes demands". It's a construct of humans, consisting of many things including misleading adverts and laws that tend to protect the seller more than the buyer, to a degree allowing sellers to lie about the quality of what they sell and often to get away with it when the buyer discovers that it doesn't function as promised. There seems to be no law (in this country at least) preventing charlatans from duping suckers who will get no even break.

As for IKEA, the furniture may not last forever but it is sufficiently good for what it is designed for. Go and buy a dining table or a kitchen or a bed and they will be fit for purpose. You can eat your dinner, prepare your food, sleep in it accordingly. If a disc sander was make by IKEA, it would work perfectly well for 2-3 years and then let go rather than being poor to the point of being unusable from the beginning.

Ikea furniture has a minimal functionality as it's not designed to last but rather to look fashionable for a period, generally until the fashion cycle cycles and the fashion victim "wants" the latest look. It will sagggg given the slightest excuse. It will shed it's plastic coating on the chipboard if you so much as stroke it. It will generally work imperfectly for 2 or 3 years (or months, if the children tug and bang at it).

**********
Part of the reason I make our own furniture and some for friends and family is that I (and sometimes they) prefer the old model goods - made to function well, look good and last for a very long time. Any fashion involved tends to be the sort that's become "classic" - i.e. been around for 50 - 300 years. Another reason is that I wasted quite a bit of dosh on cheap & nasty big store "furniture" in my youth and wish I hadn't. Still, it's all just damp chipboard rot somewhere now.

Even some very well made but rather fashion-conscious furniture - some models of which can be seen here in this forum - make me wary. I often wonder - how could that timber be reused when the owner decides that that "modern" piece no longer is and wants the latest style? Much of the reclaimed timber I like to use (it's often free, you know) comes from such furniture ......

Of course, no part of an Ikea item will be reusable, in all likelihood. Not unless SAGGG becomes a thing. "Watch you furniture gradually morph into an interesting chipboard sculpture, in post-modern style".

Eshmiel

 

[marcros]

I disagree. There is plenty of IKEA furniture that has lasted for several years without falling apart. As much as I hate to admit it there are a couple of bookcases in my house left over from when we first moved in 10 years ago. One shelf has sagged a little because it is overloaded but none of the stuff has lost its coating and besides a scratch from moving house it looks the same as when new. It isn't aspirational furniture, and is only designed to last until the fashions change. You are correct that no part will be reusable but it is well designed and efficiently manufactured.

As for "the market", it is individual buying decisions. As a certain price point, each individual decides that they don't actually want the item enough to pay the going rate. The market demand is the amount of people prepared to pay X for an item, in this case a couple of hundred quid for a disc sander. The only way to make something that will retail at that sum is by cutting the spec to a minimum and manufacturing efficiently (often in China and sea freighted by the container load). In this case it seems that the spec has been cut too far since a flat disc and low runout are pretty fundamental.

 

[Blackswanwood]

" There seems to be no law (in this country at least) preventing charlatans from duping suckers who will get no even break.

That is just not the case. The UK has extensive consumer protection legislation.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange/

 

[Eshmiel]

I disagree. There is plenty of IKEA furniture that has lasted for several years without falling apart. As much as I hate to admit it there are a couple of bookcases in my house left over from when we first moved in 10 years ago. One shelf has sagged a little because it is overloaded but none of the stuff has lost its coating and besides a scratch from moving house it looks the same as when new. It isn't aspirational furniture, and is only designed to last until the fashions change. You are correct that no part will be reusable but it is well designed and efficiently manufactured.

As for "the market", it is individual buying decisions. As a certain price point, each individual decides that they don't actually want the item enough to pay the going rate. The market demand is the amount of people prepared to pay X for an item, in this case a couple of hundred quid for a disc sander. The only way to make something that will retail at that sum is by cutting the spec to a minimum and manufacturing efficiently (often in China and sea freighted by the container load). In this case it seems that the spec has been cut too far since a flat disc and low runout are pretty fundamental.

It's true - some Ikea furniture can last for a while and doesn't drop to bits at the slightest knock. But an awful lot of it doesn't last - because of the chipboard sag; and a lot of it is too delicate for much normal family use.

The house we moved into recently has an Ikea kitchen. The worktops of laminated oak pieces is the only substantial part but the Ikea finish on it had to be completely removed and replaced with one that wasn't a flaking and/or a sticky mess. There are a couple of dozen places on the various cupboard doors that have chunks of the plastic covering coming off the chipboard underneath. The built-in fridge was defunct in fridge function and in the door dropping off from hinge holes worn too big. There is the beginnings of sag in many of the cupboard carcases (from content weight rather than damp, I think). All this in a kitchen installed only 4 years ago, in a house with ideal conditions in that the humidity and temperature vary very little over the day or year.

We once hired a house for a summer holiday that had had new Ikea from top to bottom the previous summer. The house had been dormant over winter with the heating off. By the time we came to use it the following summer not one door or drawer would open easily as the lot had sagged or warped because of (I presume) the unheated conditions and probably humid sea air of the area.

********

Customers in a market want to get what they see advertised, not an item that fails to meet the promise of that advert: that it will function properly. But many items in today's markets are not as advertised - they are sub-standard and not what the advert claims or implies. No one can actually make a real choice if what they are choosing is not what they believe they are choosing.

Part of the appeal is, as you say, low price. But there's typically nothing in the advert that says, "This low price is due to a probability that this won't function as it should". I suppose my question is: why does the law allow purveyors to lie about what it is they're selling? It's all very well saying caveat emptor but surely that's for unregulated markets in which the customers are as wary as they have to be of naughty sellers, not something that should flourish in a supposedly civilised law-bound nation.

Blackswanwood mentions our so-called consumer protection law. There is very little of that law that prevents dishonest advertising; and the fix-it-after-the-con law makes it very, very hard to actually get that law implemented in practice. There are very expensive and time-consuming hoops to jump through. In practice, sellers of dross are most afraid of bad reviews and loud complaints on the internet, not the law. It's a bad reputation that stops them, not the actions of the courts.

The worst aspect is perhaps that purveyors with good intent get sucked into the selling of dross, just to stay in the market, as you mention. Selling dross becomes a norm all over the place. You may find that somehow acceptable because it's become a norm. I don't.

Eshmiel

 

[TheTiddles]

"The market" is not some natural phenomenon that "makes demands". It's a construct of humans, consisting of many things including misleading adverts and laws that tend to protect the seller more than the buyer, to a degree allowing sellers to lie about the quality of what they sell and often to get away with it when the buyer discovers that it doesn't function as promised. There seems to be no law (in this country at least) preventing charlatans from duping suckers who will get no even break.



Ikea furniture has a minimal functionality as it's not designed to last but rather to look fashionable for a period, generally until the fashion cycle cycles and the fashion victim "wants" the latest look. It will sagggg given the slightest excuse. It will shed it's plastic coating on the chipboard if you so much as stroke it. It will generally work imperfectly for 2 or 3 years (or months, if the children tug and bang at it).

**********
Part of the reason I make our own furniture and some for friends and family is that I (and sometimes they) prefer the old model goods - made to function well, look good and last for a very long time. Any fashion involved tends to be the sort that's become "classic" - i.e. been around for 50 - 300 years. Another reason is that I wasted quite a bit of dosh on cheap & nasty big store "furniture" in my youth and wish I hadn't. Still, it's all just damp chipboard rot somewhere now.

Even some very well made but rather fashion-conscious furniture - some models of which can be seen here in this forum - make me wary. I often wonder - how could that timber be reused when the owner decides that that "modern" piece no longer is and wants the latest style? Much of the reclaimed timber I like to use (it's often free, you know) comes from such furniture ......

Of course, no part of an Ikea item will be reusable, in all likelihood. Not unless SAGGG becomes a thing. "Watch you furniture gradually morph into an interesting chipboard sculpture, in post-modern style".

Eshmiel

Ok Eshmiel, why don’t you show us some of your pieces that are price comparable you those at IKEA, of course we expect you to remove operating margin before you make the comparrison, all yours, we are waiting to be amazed
Aidan

 

[AJB Temple]

Eshmiel - I would probably read your posts if they were a lot shorter and didn't resemble a lecture. I may not be alone.

Edit: crossed with Aiden.

 

[powertools]

If I am correct in thinking that the disc sander is the 12" model the run out that the op has mentioned as being between .3mm and .5mm should not cause him a problem if he just gets on and use it rather than spend time measuring it.

 

[Trevanion]

I'd be mighty tempted to get a length of 1/2 square HSS and grind it with a slight cutting edge and try to true the disc with it running by carefully running the tool back and forth along the table. That's if the table is a half an inch lower than the centre of the disc of course.

 

[Eshmiel]

Eshmiel - I would probably read your posts if they were a lot shorter and didn't resemble a lecture. I may not be alone.

Edit: crossed with Aiden.

Leksherin' is one of my many hobbies! I am attempting to adopt an even more reedy and pedantic tone than that of one or few of the other pontificators about this place. It seems all the rage.

As to showing my furniture - well, I have many a photo. But none of the pieces are price comparable with Ikea. All mine have been free to those I gave them to. It's a hobby. I like the process. I pay for my own hobbies. Not every relationship and transaction has to be reduced to the exchange of cash, tha knows.

On the other hand, were you to send me a collection of your unused planks of best quarter-sawn oak free of any charge, I would make you summick with approximately one quarter of it. It would probably have to be Cotswold Arts & Crafts style, though. Built like a farm wain to last forever. I don't really like scandi modern; and can't cut the chipboard without getting my lip caught in a sneer-rictus.

As to your invitation to employ twit mode - well, I prefer to say summick other than tweet tweet twatter.

By the way, can anyone explain the utility of a disc sander? Surely there are now better ways to shape the bits than poking them at a little bit of spinning sandpaper that grabs the workpiece and tries to break your wrist, given half a chance.....? I had one on a belt sander about 20 years ago but couldn't find anything for it to do, especially after getting those hand planes and an RO sander.

Eshmiel

 

[Alpha-Dave]

How much flex is in the disc? Using a disc sander can vary from gentle rubbing to medium-to-light pushing the work into the disc. With the addition of a velcro pad it may still get you <0.1 mm accuracy.

 

[TheTiddles]

It does sound like you are after more precision than a cheap machine will give, have you tried a shooting board? Obviously that’s not a panacea

aidan

ps - anyone who wants to give their thumbs a rest can put Eshmeil on ignore, makes things much easier to read