Diamond Sharpening stone

[northan]

Can anyone please suggest a good-quality diamond stone? I have £100 to spend and ideally, I would like a course grit and fine grit, but for an exceptional product, I'm willing to just have a course if need be. These are needed to re-edge my chisels and planes, and possibly flatten my water stones
I have been looking at the Titman from the woodworker's workshop, I believe these are supplied by James Barry, who use to supply Trend until 2020. The Atoma has also been on my radar, but they only offer a single course, two would go over my budget.
I know there are differences between mono - poly crystalline diamonds and the mechanics of how they adhere to the substrate, however, I believe most premium products should incorporate these features.

Many thanks

 

[D_W]

if any of these other than the atoma are supplied from china, I wouldn't come close to paying $100 for any of them.

The stones made under brands like DMD or whatever are about $20 shipped and ultimately, you'd rather have a couple of these for $40 than one expensive one. They get slow quickly and then stay slow, but continue to work. You can use one for typical work and keep one fresh.

why would I not pay close to $100 for them? I have seen bulk deals on alibaba for mild steel plates with monocrystalline electroplate diamonds on both sides for about $6-$7 each including freight to the US.

the atomas are good, but check amazon for those, also. They are often heavily marked up. japan market price for them is probably around $40. At the moment in the US, you can get them for $38. the diamonds are arranged in orderly piles and stick to the matrix for a long time, and they're flat.

 

[D_W]

I just looked up the "titman" stone. I wouldn't even come close to considering it. There's a 99% chance that it's just a fancy packaged inexpensive chinese diamond hone, and they sell the nonsense honing fluid that's just a mix of naptha and mineral spirits at the equivalent of $350 a gallon. The components for those industrially are a couple of dollars a gallon.

this stuff is all nonsense, in my opinion, and it takes advantage of people new to the hobby.

Diamond stones are a semi-consumable. They're not permanent. if anyone doesn't believe that, buy a new one compared to the one you've had for 20 years and you'll notice how much time you've wasted hanging on to them too long. They're kind of like metal sanding belts in that a metal sanding belt can be used when it's worn, and it's useful to keep a few worn belts, but it is not good policy to try to squeeze extra life out of them at the expense of not finishing a job.

 

[Doug B]

I have to agree with D W, I bought DMT diamond stones years ago & after the newness has worn off they have to be the slowest way to sharpen blades, as he says they still work but incredibly slowly.

 

[D_W]

(Amazon has more or less become our friend in items like this - not necessarily as an organization, but the opportunity for sellers to go find something like this:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...6.html?spm=a2700.wholesale.0.0.28261596b3fAuw
it's inexpensive, but who needs 20 or 200, and if you think about buying 5 as a sample, the shipping makes little sense.

On amazon, these things show up for $20 shipped here, you don't have to deal with any of that, the seller only makes a couple of bucks on each, but they won't care because their marketing and fulfillment is 20x more efficient. And if you don't like what you get for $20, you can return it.

We are probably past the point where retailers who just repackage and brand stuff and mark it way up should be tolerated, but they are savvy at being "friendly" with customers.

 

[northan]

Thank you for the advice.
I certainly did not really appreciate the semi-consumable nature of these stones. I thought this was the case many years ago, however, I assumed (wrongly) the new monotypes not glued onto a surface would be a lifetime product.

For a new buyer of diamond stones, it's not a comfortable feeling to go to Alibaba for a couple of samples. I don't have the information on the type, guarantees, or return policy, but Amazon, as you suggested is probably a good alternative as it's a reseller making a couple of pounds and taking the flack if there is an issue.
I have looked at a couple of the UK Amazon stores and these seem to be some winning with other customers in a similar situation
Type 1 Type 2 type 3

 

[D_W]

amazon won't give me the same listings because I'm in the states, but if they are around 20 pounds, 8x3", steel core and two sided, and they don't have colored plastic showing in the grid, etc, they are all about the same.

Monocrystalline diamonds are cheap. At the outset of using the stone, you'll end up tearing loose any diamond that sticks up (for all brands - atoma's arrangement in piles makes it so there's not much exposed standalone, but they do have a different feel, especially in coarse grits, that some people don't like), and it will get "slow quickly". And then it will wear slowly after that, which is where you won't notice just how slow it gets unless you compare a waterstone or something at some point and realize that it's a lot faster than your diamond hone.

But that said, yes, don't buy from alibaba - I was making the point that when these things are $8 each, some sellers will sell them for $20, some will try for $45 and have their brand printed on them (you can see in the alibaba listings that this is a service offered - get the same item but have your brand printed on it), and some will try for much more. if there is a true value proposition, they should be able to state what it is.

At one point, trend had a video up talking about how much better the lapping fluid is than anything else. well, if you like a mix of naptha and mineral spirits, maybe it is. In the states, their marketers at wood shows would tell people "you can't use WD 40 on stones" without being able to explain what was so much better about the lapping fluid. so, on youtube, I posted the SDS contents in the video (mineral spirits and a slow drying type of naptha) and asked "why is it $350 a gallon equivalent (at the time) for a mixture of naptha and mineral spirits" and instead of answering, they removed the entire video. Do I know for sure they removed the video because of my comment? of course not, but it seemed a little odd that it was gone the next day.

At any rate, microcrystalline diamonds have always been marketed as "a better option" because they're not friable, but a couple of folks a decade ago told me that polycrystalline plates are better, but more expensive, and at the time, ezelap at least had a mixture of the types.

I use sharpening stuff pretty heavily because I do about half making things, and half making tools. The toolmaking is very hard on sharpening stuff and it'd be lovely to have something like an electrocoat plate that really didn't wear, but they all do, and quickly. Some of the pictures I've taken of surfaces make it look like most of the diamonds are still there after all of the big ones are gone and after very heavy use, but they're probably just dull or the ones remaining have no real sharp bits oriented toward the top.

So, I have a lot of exposure to this and heavy use over 15 years, and am keenly interested in not wasting time. But safe to say, when someone touts to you that they have plates that are 30 years old and as good as new, it's because they don't know they're not. I think if you have any semblance of electroplate let even after 20 years, you'll still get some cutting ability, but the biggest shortcoming people have sharpening is not finishing the actual job and thinking they did, so a very slow stone that you think is fast is detrimental.

For toolmaking where I'm working with high hardness tools and doing final prep, obviously a 4 or 10 to 1 difference in speed is noticeable. The solution industrially is not that there's a magic solution, it's just to use something else and generally have it be a machine powered method.

So, what's my suggestion? buy a couple that are around 20 pounds from amazon - 300/1000 or 400/1000 - whatever it is. Use one of them but the other sparingly. when they get really far apart if you're lucky enough to do the sharpening that causes that to happen, because of the volume of work you're doing, just replace the slow one or set it aside for later.

I've tried every trick to revive the slow plates - cleaning them, adding loose diamond grit to them and just using them as a lap, but it's all sort of a half way measure.

The $100+ hones won't last any longer, either. The more expensive plates that were made in the US sometimes had the diamonds on slightly neater, but it's not exactly a huge differentiator.

Atomas lose diamonds less quickly, but they do also get very slow over time.

 

[Jacob]

Oil stones a lot cheaper, cut just as well and last for life.
Norton IB8 for basic use, and one finer grade if you can make use of it, all you need.
The diamond dust layer is very thin, the synthetic/real oil-stone grits are all the way through.

 

[D_W]

Oil stones a lot cheaper, cut just as well and last for life.

Not always, not always, and they can. Oilstones rely on using simple steels (except crystolon, which will cut most things, but crystolon only works properly in an oil bath).

Diamonds are a good start for beginners. if the cost between the two is an issue, there's no way that woodworking will be an affordable hobby.

 

[Ttrees]

I have to agree with D W, I bought DMT diamond stones years ago & after the newness has worn off they have to be the slowest way to sharpen blades, as he says they still work but incredibly slowly.

I find the 3 or 400 grit to be quite speedy, but beyond that grit I agree.
I still use them though, have a pair of those card types 300 and 1000,
and a fancy one for after which is a bit slow
I get the impression the grid doesn't help matters regarding nicks, so I go very easy on the 1000.

Those ITS/Vaunt/Ultex hones often go for half price every 6 months.
Interesting to see some what is likely the same hones without the grid being sold,
I'd think you could likely get those for the same cost.

Perhaps not as suitable for lapping waterstones, I doubt it just guessing,
but it doesn't seem to make much sense to me using a fancy thing which doesn't seem that great.
take Cosman's routine with the premium kit, looks an expensive way to go about it.

 

[D_W]

I'll consider taking a picture of the work of hones later today, as I took pictures of one of 400 grit hones working new. They are "violent" at a microscopic level.

Over time, they become slow, and the 300/400 sides almost take the place of a 1k waterstone. The 1k sides become more like a 2/3k stone in speed if used enough, but without the same level of refinement.

Sharpening with anything is not a matter of "this is better than that", as it's also true that a waterstone will be stood still honing a high hardness 10V turning tool, but a slow diamond hone will still cut the vanadium in those tools. it's more a matter of using whatever a sharpening medium is doing at a point in its life cycle and worrying less about what's better or not.

Point being two things - you'll see the visual difference in work done when I show A/B of the same stone as I now only have somewhat worn stones, and even when they're worn, they're still useful, just not for speed over wide areas.

if I completely stopped using diamond hones (i don't use them that often, despite having gone through perhaps 20), I'd still keep a worn one around for the oddball steel coming through with a lot of carbide in it.

cosman's suggestion of kit is kind of dumb, but if you're selling the kit, I guess less so. if you have unlimited money, it may not be that big of a deal (and before I draw fire about that, i've spent more than $700 on individual natural stones, and more than $400 many many times. But there's not much correlation between cost of sharpening gear and capability, and just because I like some of those natural stones and trade them around doesn't mean that I think that kind of spending is appropriate for a beginner.

Understanding what's happening at the edge (which takes 15 minutes) vs. getting hard core into a method and relying on the method rather than understanding outcome is far more useful.

cosman's setup doesn't return results any faster than a $10 used fine india stone and $10 of loose diamonds bought from ebay. I would actually rather use that pair than shapton glasstones (which I've had in the past and am well familiar with).

 

[Jacob]

Nobody has ever explained to me the point of either water stones or diamond plates, as compared to more traditional oil stones, which are cheap, easy to use and likely to last for life.
I did buy a set of 3 Ezelaps in a moment of madness (£200 or thereabouts!) but the point still didn't reveal itself. I sold them on.
My only improvement was to use a coarse 3m Diapad to freshen up oil stones - the fine ones need the surface cleaning every now and then. Not flattening (not "lapping" ) just cleaning, bedded in wire edges etc. A bit of old stone would do instead of the Diapad, which I just happened to have.
You have to beware of the great army of gadget sellers and catalogue wavers out there. Selling one or two oil-stones which last forever isn't good for business. They need you to diversify, be permanently slightly dissatisfied, always up for the next "new improved" etc. and spend spend!

 

[D_W]

I'm sure someone has explained it to you. I use oilstones. I could very easily explain where diamond hones work better, but generally don't use tools where that's the case. I could explain it, but I'm pretty sure the data line in is intentionally closed.

the companies making diamond hones and oilstones aren't the same thing. There are thousands of points of sale for oilstones in the US. the straw scenario you're trying to present (they're out to get you!!!) is a false reality.

here's a very simple example - I think you may be able to get it. Imagine you're using a carbide cutter insert or M42 (super high hardness cobalt HSS) and you need to lap or hone something on it to touch it up. What do you use? you can do a crap job of both with an oilstone - I've bought a gaggle of stone lots from old machine shops here where the oilstones are loaded on the surface and then discarded because it's cheaper to buy an india stone than it is for them to recondition the surface of one.

Or you can use a simple diamond hone, which cuts carbide easily. the oilstones cannot.

For vintage chisels, it makes less sense. there's a whole real world out there that isn't just "Mr. Gripesdale's" scenario. I can't remember what name you gave yourself for the whole sharpening gimmick - correct as needed.

 

[Agent_zed]

Nobody has ever explained to me the point of either water stones or diamond plates, as compared to more traditional oil stones, which are cheap, easy to use and likely to last for life.
I did buy a set of 3 Ezelaps in a moment of madness (£200 or thereabouts!) but the point still didn't reveal itself. I sold them on.
My only improvement was to use a coarse 3m Diapad to freshen up oil stones - the fine ones need the surface cleaning every now and then. Not flattening (not "lapping" ) just cleaning, bedded in wire edges etc. A bit of old stone would do instead of the Diapad, which I just happened to have.
You have to beware of the great army of gadget sellers and catalogue wavers out there. Selling one or two oil-stones which last forever isn't good for business. They need you to diversify, be permanently slightly dissatisfied, always up for the next "new improved" etc. and spend spend!

I haven't used diamond stones so can't really comment on them but as to your point of oil stones I would agree. it's what I use to sharpen my chisels etc along with a piece of MDF and some car paint cutting compound and I can get them sharp enough to do the cutting of the edge of a piece of paper thing that all the youtubers do.

As mentioned in other posts above though it would seem diamond is better for certain applications so depends on what you are sharpening I guess.

 

[D_W]

As mentioned in other posts above though it would seem diamond is better for certain applications so depends on what you are sharpening I guess.

Anything where part of the item being sharpened is significantly harder than the abrasive in an india stone. And there are many things.

 

[Jacob]

...

As mentioned in other posts above though it would seem diamond is better for certain applications so depends on what you are sharpening I guess.

Yes they are used for flattening water-stones, which seems to be somewhat pointless. Why not miss out the water-stones and just use the diamond itself?

 

[Hornbeam]

I have never really tried diamond or scary sharp type systems so cant really comment on how they perform
I find waterstones cut much faster than oil stones but again that could be down to the type of oil stones I have use. Waterstone maintenance is vey easy and they dont clog up if used properly
The biggest issue I see with water stones is water. You have to quite carefully dry everything after sharpening as if not fully dry you run the risk corrosion particularly on plane irons after you have fitted the cap iron. You can buy inhibitors but I think these are quite expensive
The point I am making is I dont think there is a holy grail of sharpening systems we all use slightly different tools etc so once you find a system that works well for you. stick with it and work on improving technique

 

[D_W]

I have never really tried diamond or scary sharp type systems so cant really comment on how they perform
I find waterstones cut much faster than oil stones but again that could be down to the type of oil stones I have use. Waterstone maintenance is vey easy and they dont clog up if used properly
The biggest issue I see with water stones is water. You have to quite carefully dry everything after sharpening as if not fully dry you run the risk corrosion particularly on plane irons after you have fitted the cap iron. You can buy inhibitors but I think these are quite expensive
The point I am making is I dont think there is a holy grail of sharpening systems we all use slightly different tools etc so once you find a system that works well for you. stick with it and work on improving technique

There's an enormous range of things in oilstones, but I would imagine most people think of natural stones. or perhaps a tired india stone and natural stones.

On the low end of the oilstones is something that doesn't exist in waterstones, which is a coarse stone that will cut just about anything and can be put in a fixture where it won't clog (medium crystolon is my favorite for this kind of stuff in a norton IM-313). It will blast things that most waterstones won't touch and is a seriously competent grinding stone.

Above that, oil or water isn't so much the condition vs. what the abrasive is, and then how you're using the stones. I'll avoid going into further detail, but I think a good sharpener ultimately gets the same results in about the same amount of time no matter what they're using as long as they can grind efficiently. the excruciating details follow only when it gets to materials, methods and objectives.

Ok...I'll give one example. magnacut - a stainless that's being sold in plane irons in the US now. Once you get to the hard part of the iron, it's 6% very hard carbides, even though they're really fine. To sharpen it, diamonds make a lot of sense. for what I'd say would make no difference elsewhere (using an all diamond setup), for a steel like that, it'll be the only sensible way to deal with it. Fortunately, the all in cost for an "all diamond" setup outside of grinding is about $50, and the results can be finer than any waterstone being sold if needed at that cost. to someone using an English chisel from 1875, the use of the diamonds isn't going to seem that pleasant or nice - but they don't have a need for them.

Most generalizations about stone are conditional. as in, waterstones are fastest often being said. If you put something like magnacut to them or even hard M2, then they will seem not that fast. it's probably better to just avoid those things, at least in my opinion, because the whole benefit of the "modern magic" is lost if it's being used out of context (with stones that don't sharpen it well).

You're right about no grail - there isn't one. there's understanding of geometry and edge fineness and burr removal or prevention in the first place. and avoiding statements like "this is powder metal steel, which is finer grained than any other type of steel". well, it might be, but it's often not as fine as cast plain steels from 100+ years ago. Sometimes many times less fine.

 

[Jacob]

.... I dont think there is a holy grail of sharpening systems ...

Agree.
If in doubt go for cheapest and traditional, tried and tested.

 

[D_W]

Yes they are used for flattening water-stones, which seems to be somewhat pointless. Why not miss out the water-stones and just use the diamond itself?

totally went past explanations. This is a strange thing - living in a world where you imagine several people didn't respond to something and supposing an off the market response.