Diamond Sharpening stone

[D_W]

Agree.
If in doubt go for cheapest and traditional, tried and tested.

Grinding wheel and turkish stone would be that. well, traditional. not cheap at this point. Rub stone before the turkish between grinds if necessary according to some sources. not a single one found yet talking about rolling a round bevel on an india stone, though - that's traditional if post-sputnik is supposedly traditional.

Good finish oilstones are more expensive than waterstones. Though cretans still are much like the turkish.

not everyone wants to imagine your world where site work is fine work and people who sharpen for site work are covering the world of fine carving.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Jacob of course isn't really the best person here to comment on water stones, having admitted he's never used one.

 

[D_W]

Jacob of course isn't really the best person here to comment on water stones, having admitted he's never used one.

I hope at least a few of the folks who were concerned that the $20 "scottchen" (or whatever the brand name of the day is) stones are unusable can feel like they can dump an american 20 on them.

don't buy anything that doesn't have a diamond or honeycomb pattern on it or is any color other than silver, though. there is definitely junk still made and it's within a few bucks in cost. stray diamonds, not really electroplate and some of that stuff will shed diamonds so fast that you'll feel like you have sand in your hands.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob of course isn't really the best person here to comment on water stones, having admitted he's never used one.

Basically I've been talked out of it listening to everybody else's experiences.
Thing is I wouldn't want to have to buy another diamond stone to flatten it with - seems a bit silly to me. More expense, more time wasted flattening!
And water causes rust. Not many people know that. Yes I know you can buy a rust inhibitor to add to water - and so it goes, spend spend!

 

[Hornbeam]

If in doubt go for cheapest and traditional, tried and tested

I would disagree. Go for teh system you like best and suits the tool material you are sharpening

 

[Ttrees]

I hope at least a few of the folks who were concerned that the $20 "scottchen" (or whatever the brand name of the day is) stones are unusable can feel like they can dump an american 20 on them.

don't buy anything that doesn't have a diamond or honeycomb pattern on it or is any color other than silver, though. there is definitely junk still made and it's within a few bucks in cost. stray diamonds, not really electroplate and some of that stuff will shed diamonds so fast that you'll feel like you have sand in your hands.

Really, I would'a thought there would have been a norm established by now,
regarding that.
The only thing cheaper I've seen, was the ones with ecliptical slots stamped into them with coloured plastic bases, cannot recall if the grit came loose, they were pants.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Jacob, you obviously haven't listened to "everybody else's" experiences, just the ones that confirm your biases. Plenty of people use waterstones without any problems. I've used them for 40 years and never had one single spot of rust. I'd much rather inadvertently get a drop of dirty water on my wood than a drop of oil. If the whole stone is used they don't go much out of flat - much the same as an oilstone - and they can be flattened on a coping stone or anything else reasonably fine and flat.

 

[D_W]

Really, I would'a thought there would have been a norm established by now,
regarding that.
The only thing cheaper I've seen, was the ones with ecliptical slots stamped into them with coloured plastic bases, cannot recall if the grit came loose, they were pants.

those are the ones I'm thinking of - they are still sold at some retailers here. the grading of the grits is extremely poor and they come off. I've bought something of that sort for $10 twice. First to find out it was junk, and then many years later figuring "they couldn't possibly still be making them like that when so many good options are around".

the answer at the time, maybe 6 years ago is....oh yes they could still be doing that.

it's not woodworking that drove up the quality of electroplating in china as far as I can tell, it's lapidary.

but that's a 250 year old story at least - woodworkers and carvers had access to fine abrasives for the odd need from traveling salespeople because lapidary trades needed them and grinding glass or gemstones doesn't allow for too many stray large grits.

The honecomb and diamond pattern plates that are good may all be coming from one or two sources, or it could be a case of someone in China or elsewhere selling a machine process that makes them - whatever it is, they're everywhere and they've been around since at least 2007, which is the first time I got a no-name diamond hone that was good. But before widespread distribution, they were $80 in current money and not $20. At the time, that was $50 or so from "best sharpening stones".

(just looked, they still sell the same thing along with other types - that stone was on par with the $20 "scottchen" or dmd stuff sold through amazon and ebay, maybe slightly better finished. Still about $50, so a no go based on my experience - it's not 2 1/2 times better than a $20 stone- but one could do much worse buying "packages" that include stones, mats and fluids).

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I would disagree. Go for teh system you like best and suits the tool material you are sharpening

No, traditional stuff is always the best. Haven't you seen Jacob out in the Derbyshire countryside on his penny farthing?

 

[Hornbeam]

No, traditional stuff is always the best. Haven't you seen Jacob out in the Derbyshire countryside on his penny farthing

I have always fancied riding a penny farthing. Much better view over the hedges than on a standard road bike

 

[Inspector]

Thing is I wouldn't want to have to buy another diamond stone to flatten it with-..........

Good news Jacob! You don't need one.

Back in the 80's there was a Japanese gentleman in Seattle that sold Japanese tools out of a small shop. I went there one day and bought a gouge and some sharpening stones. He sold a common cheap coarse/fine crystolon stone (silicone carbide) that was not pre-impregnated with oil, along with the water stones. You used the crystolon stone for the removal of nicks etc using water if needed before the two water stones, 1000 and 4000 grits. He showed me that when the water stones got dished you took the crystolon stone and with the side rubbed the water stone until it was flat. It only takes a minute or two. So three stones do the job and one dresses the other two if needed. The diamonds stay in the jewelry store. You can't use the more common oil impregnated stone as it contaminates the water stones but the non-impregnated ones are around and not expensive.

Pete

 

[Ttrees]

@D_W
This one linked earlier looks a bit different than either the cross patterned variety
aswell as the plastic red/blue/yellow ones
and also my Dia-sharp fancy one.

Seems like for 50 squid, they should be as good or better than the card ones going for 2 or 3 pounds each.
Suppose I wouldn't be surprised if there was only one or two manufacturers of these,
I've heard it said that often cheap carbide tooling is decent because it cannot be done without cutting corners, unlike HSS.
Similar deal perhaps, haven't a clue how these are made, but for the money
I'd be slow to spend the cash for something worth a pound.

 

[Jacob]

Good news Jacob! You don't need one.

Back in the 80's there was a Japanese gentleman in Seattle that sold Japanese tools out of a small shop. I went there one day and bought a gouge and some sharpening stones. He sold a common cheap coarse/fine crystolon stone (silicone carbide) that was not pre-impregnated with oil, along with the water stones. You used the crystolon stone for the removal of nicks etc using water if needed before the two water stones, 1000 and 4000 grits. He showed me that when the water stones got dished you took the crystolon stone and with the side rubbed the water stone until it was flat. It only takes a minute or two. So three stones do the job and one dresses the other two if needed. The diamonds stay in the jewelry store. You can't use the more common oil impregnated stone as it contaminates the water stones but the non-impregnated ones are around and not expensive.

Pete

Right. Thanks for that. Sounds complicated I'd need to take notes.
You don't need to flatten or "dress" oil-stones, ever. "Freshening" the surface is the nearest you'd get.

 

[D_W]

Back in the 80's there was a Japanese gentleman in Seattle that sold Japanese tools out of a small shop. I went there one day and bought a gouge and some sharpening stones. He sold a common cheap coarse/fine crystolon stone (silicone carbide) that was not pre-impregnated with oil, along with the water stones. You used the crystolon stone for the removal of nicks etc using water if needed before the two water stones, 1000 and 4000 grits. He showed me that when the water stones got dished you took the crystolon stone and with the side rubbed the water stone until it was flat. It only takes a minute or two. So three stones do the job and one dresses the other two if needed. The diamonds stay in the jewelry store. You can't use the more common oil impregnated stone as it contaminates the water stones but the non-impregnated ones are around and not expensive.

Pete

I've brought in something like 200 stones from japan. they have the crystolon and vitrified india stones that we have (except wider in the india stones is common, and they have them to finer grits than commonly available here). the synthetic stones are generally "dry". to the point that I can only remember one stone that looked like it was used with oil, and it was an old brown alumina stone. I think someone allowed the surface to dry with oxidized oil to make it cut finer and slower than it was.

Crystolon works fine if it's stored in a bucket and rinsed out, which is common there. if it lays flat western style outside of an oil bath, it loads pretty quickly.

the stones are pretty much the same - instead of impregnating with oil and then wiping surfaces, they will just take a stone that's loading (like red alumina type) and rinse it in water.

But when they get to the states, they work great with oil, too (the fine india stones) and I wish they were sold here.

 

[D_W]

Right. Thanks for that. Sounds complicated I'd need to take notes.
You don't need to flatten or "dress" oil-stones, ever. "Freshening" the surface is the nearest you'd get.

I'm sure you could teach all of the life long pros over there a thing or five.



well, if they had questions about using a western shaper.

 

[pgrbff]

Agree.
If in doubt go for cheapest and traditional, tried and tested.

You don't think water stones, natural or synthetic, have been tried and tested in Japan?

 

[pgrbff]

Can anyone please suggest a good-quality diamond stone? I have £100 to spend and ideally, I would like a course grit and fine grit, but for an exceptional product, I'm willing to just have a course if need be. These are needed to re-edge my chisels and planes, and possibly flatten my water stones
I have been looking at the Titman from the woodworker's workshop, I believe these are supplied by James Barry, who use to supply Trend until 2020. The Atoma has also been on my radar, but they only offer a single course, two would go over my budget.
I know there are differences between mono - poly crystalline diamonds and the mechanics of how they adhere to the substrate, however, I believe most premium products should incorporate these features.

Many thanks

Atoma are good and can be bought from Amazon.jp for far less.

 

[Jacob]

You don't think water stones, natural or synthetic, have been tried and tested in Japan?

Sure they have. I was thinking of what is tried and tested in UK - and cheap.

 

[pgrbff]

Top quality water stones are cheap from Amazon.jp

 

[Peter Sefton]

A little more in depth information regarding our James Barry Titman Edge diamond sharpening stones, taken from his website and a video talking about breaking in.

The Facts about Diamond Sharpening Stones​

James Barry Sharpening Solutions Technical Information.​

Grit & micron sizes are almost impossible to equate or translate into traditional grit sizes of water & oil stones, they are totally different. The the grit sizes quoted on the James Barry range of products are accurate to within the parameters of international grading standards which is +/- 11%.
Therefore a 25 micron product may consist of diamond particles varying from between 27.5 – 22.5 (a human hair cut in half is approx 50 micron).
180 grit/70 micron 300 grit/50 micron 600 grit/25 micron 1000 grit/ 5 micron.
All the products have a breaking in period, there is an excess layer of diamond which needs to be removed before the surface is at its optimum designed sharpening abrasion (see videos). Be careful when breaking in a coarse side (300 grit / 50 micron) to wipe down the tool thoroughly before moving to the fine side (1000 grit / 15 micron) to avoid cross contamination and therefore taking a much coarser diamond onto a much finer side – it will scratch it !
Once the stone is worn in, you will not need to be quite so thorough as there is no longer a threat of cross contamination. The actual cutting medium (micron size of diamond) is actually 1/3 rd of the quoted sizes. In construction the precision ground substrate (+/- 0.005” flatness) is placed in a tank of nickel which is heated to a certain temperature. The an electrical current is added which electroplates the nickel onto the surface. This includes the diamond particles. Then the nickel is grown around the particles so that they are buried 2/3rds deep leaving 1/3rd exposed (the designed abrasive cut) Similar to the construction and appearance of an iceberg.
The only way to quote the flatness of a diamond stone accurately is from the substrate because of the variation of the diamond particles (+/- 11%) and because the new product does have to be broken in.
This is why this range of diamond products is regarded as one of the best available. The diamond is electroplated directly onto a precision ground substrate. Both sides are electroplated onto the same precision ground substrate giving the best possible flatness.
The majority of other products are constructed by a “layer” system where a plate is electroplated or impregnated with diamond and then stuck onto some sort of base material, either plastic or steel. Why ? Because its cheap and very easy to produce.
Our production is the most complicated and complex but gives by far the best results. For the best quality the diamond has to be electroplated directly onto the surface. Ensure that you use the Originla Formula James Barry lapping fluid introduced into the Woodworking Industry by James Barry over 20 yrs ago.
Lapping fluid is a synthetic based petroleum lubricant formulated to be used with diamond compounds. This superior lubricant, with its penetrating qualities and oil/water solubility, not only increases the cutting action, but assures superior lubrication of every diamond particle throughout the honing process. Following the success of Lapping fluid it has been copied and companies have tried to reproduce the original formula.
The only brand now selling the original product is James Barry Sharpenng.
Remember its a Synthetic petroleum based lubricant formulated to be used with diamond compounds. It has penetrating qualities and is soluble in oil/water. It increases the cutting action and assures superior lubrication of every diamond particle during the honing process. Designed in the engineering Industry more than 30 years ago for use solely on diamond abrasives.
It prevents rusting, clogging and excessive build-up of residue. Using James Barry Sharpening original formula lapping fluid on these diamond products gives a 5 year guarantee warranty – with correct usage.
Remember Do not apply pressure when using these products, let the diamond do the work.
They will sharpen upto 98% quicker than traditional methods. Soft and slow is the key. A continual diamond surface prevents snagging or catching when sharpening pointed or smaller tooling. Its a smooth feel whereas surfaces with holes (or other shapes) can result in snagging and the swarf seems to accumulate in the recesses. For extreme removal of material we employ the unique clearance channels which clears easily, especially with the lapping fluid in use

https://woodworkersworkshop.co.uk/titman-edge/?limit=30
Cheers

Peter