novocaine
Established Member
hyde park ( I think) has a speed limit ( I think) that is applicable to cyclist so I assume it's that.
Cycling question
- Thread starter RogerS
- Start date
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novocaine":wm1r6hbx said:
Richmond Park does too, but there seems to be some doubt over whether it really does apply to cyclists or not
http://road.cc/content/news/145161-spee ... lty-lawful
mseries
Established Member
novocaine":uwl3b0nw said:
The table was compiled based on Police Officers' reports so I wouldn't be surprised if they made comments such as "he was exceeding the 30mph speed limit, really olny meaning he was going faster than 30mph". Going faster than an arbitary speed limit isn't cause for a crash though as many speeding motorists will tell you.
RogerS
Established Member
Finial":8te8r6fb said:
I was curious to know if there had been any analysis as to the causes of KSI's for cyclists and came across this report from the NHS - who one could argue have an even better handle on things then the police.
Their figures do not concur with yours. The figures from the NHS who put the blame for KSI's (killed or seriously injured) more on the cyclist! http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/02february/ ... eport.aspx
If one thinks it is the motorists fault then one will believe the police figures. And vice versa.
The only thing clear from this is that we cannot say for sure which type of road user is more to blame.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
No they don't put the blame on the cyclist at all. Yes cyclists are more involved in KSIs but this is as victim rather than perpetrator.RogerS":icuye4mo said:
RogerS
Established Member
Jacob":2ahgozw0 said:
Jacob, write out 100 x " I must read the article before opening my mouth"
This suggests that cyclists are slightly more to blame for fatal collisions. from the report I linked to.
Thanks Roger. Certainly drivers aren’t always to blame. I know of a case where a rider shot out of a side road and ran into the side of a car on the far side of the road.
But my own experience is that, round my way at least, people riding bikes do so mostly in compliance with the law and the highway code (the exception being that many jump red lights, which I have never once seen to cause a problem, because of course they don’t do it through moving traffic).
But just about all drivers contravene both, particularly in two respects - speeding and overtaking bikes too close. Many also jump red lights and drive while phoning or otherwise distracted.
The commonest accidents that injure bike riders happen when:
a vehicle overtakes a bike and immediately turns left
a vehicle pulls out of a side road in path of a bike
a driver’s door opens in path of bike
a vehicle turns right, across the path of an oncoming bike
a vehicle hits bike while overtaking too close
a vehicle enters a roundabout when bike has priority
I’ve experience all these, while cycling fully in compliance with the Highway Code, and as far as I am concerned, lawless and incompetent drivers are a menace. Education and training for drivers hasn’t worked very well. This is why we need proper cycle tracks.
So, going back to the original post, it is not possible to assume that bike riders are to blame for passing HGVs on the left. Perhaps some are, and perhaps sometimes the driver pulls up alongside the bike and then turns left over them.
But my own experience is that, round my way at least, people riding bikes do so mostly in compliance with the law and the highway code (the exception being that many jump red lights, which I have never once seen to cause a problem, because of course they don’t do it through moving traffic).
But just about all drivers contravene both, particularly in two respects - speeding and overtaking bikes too close. Many also jump red lights and drive while phoning or otherwise distracted.
The commonest accidents that injure bike riders happen when:
a vehicle overtakes a bike and immediately turns left
a vehicle pulls out of a side road in path of a bike
a driver’s door opens in path of bike
a vehicle turns right, across the path of an oncoming bike
a vehicle hits bike while overtaking too close
a vehicle enters a roundabout when bike has priority
I’ve experience all these, while cycling fully in compliance with the Highway Code, and as far as I am concerned, lawless and incompetent drivers are a menace. Education and training for drivers hasn’t worked very well. This is why we need proper cycle tracks.
So, going back to the original post, it is not possible to assume that bike riders are to blame for passing HGVs on the left. Perhaps some are, and perhaps sometimes the driver pulls up alongside the bike and then turns left over them.
RogerS
Established Member
This from the report I linked to suggests other reasons as well - including 'one in four of non-collision accidents' were caused by drunk cycling !!
Riding aside these giant beasts of the road can be intimidating, but data suggests they are not as dangerous as other vehicles.
By far the biggest risk to a cyclist in terms of a collision are cars and taxis. The 2012 DfT report recorded 2,434 collisions between a cyclist and a car, with the KSI rate between a cyclist and an HGV just 114.
Unsurprisingly, however, cyclists involved in an HGV collision tended to sustain more serious injuries than those involving cars. In 2013, there were 14 reported fatalities in London, nine of which involved an HGV.
A surprising number of cyclists endanger themselves unnecessarily. In 2012, there were 248 KSIs with no other vehicles involved. Instead, cyclists were injured or killed for reasons such as falling off or hitting the kerb.
However, it’s worth highlighting that a significant number of these incidents occurred when cyclists were impaired by alcohol. Transport Research Laboratory estimated that around one in four “non-collision cycle accidents” was the result of drunk cycling
The other interesting point that came out was
One UK researcher has argued that many women wrongly perceive that overtaking an HGV on the left-hand side is less risky, possibly because they believe sticking close to the curb is safer. The researcher did find a statistically significant trend in women reporting to be “left-side overtakers
There is an awful lot of interesting research out there and from a quick dip in one of the recommendations that arise time after time was better road training and education for, no - not drivers - but the cyclists themselves. That is NOT to detract from your valid points made re driver inattention etc.
Riding aside these giant beasts of the road can be intimidating, but data suggests they are not as dangerous as other vehicles.
By far the biggest risk to a cyclist in terms of a collision are cars and taxis. The 2012 DfT report recorded 2,434 collisions between a cyclist and a car, with the KSI rate between a cyclist and an HGV just 114.
Unsurprisingly, however, cyclists involved in an HGV collision tended to sustain more serious injuries than those involving cars. In 2013, there were 14 reported fatalities in London, nine of which involved an HGV.
A surprising number of cyclists endanger themselves unnecessarily. In 2012, there were 248 KSIs with no other vehicles involved. Instead, cyclists were injured or killed for reasons such as falling off or hitting the kerb.
However, it’s worth highlighting that a significant number of these incidents occurred when cyclists were impaired by alcohol. Transport Research Laboratory estimated that around one in four “non-collision cycle accidents” was the result of drunk cycling
The other interesting point that came out was
One UK researcher has argued that many women wrongly perceive that overtaking an HGV on the left-hand side is less risky, possibly because they believe sticking close to the curb is safer. The researcher did find a statistically significant trend in women reporting to be “left-side overtakers
There is an awful lot of interesting research out there and from a quick dip in one of the recommendations that arise time after time was better road training and education for, no - not drivers - but the cyclists themselves. That is NOT to detract from your valid points made re driver inattention etc.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Both innit.RogerS":1jlyojho said:
I had no cycling training but I have years of cycling experience and have also driven HGVs (mostly careering around quarries off-road - any cyclists would have been flattened very quickly!).
I'm somewhat horrified by some other cyclists and the risks they take. It's often not recklessness but just ignorance and inexperience. More training would be good.
Training can't be a bad thing. If there are people who don't know it's not safe to filter past a vehicle that might turn, in spite of all the warning stickers on HGVs etc, it's time they did. I'm not arguing against it, only that it is not going to do much to make cycling safe. HGVs kill more than other vehicles in London, but cars, taxis, vans and buses are dangerous too. Most accidents are like the ones I described, and not necessarily the rider's fault at all.
What is needed more than training is proper protected tracks so that people feel safe and are safe cycling. Traffic law enforcement might help until we have them.
What is needed more than training is proper protected tracks so that people feel safe and are safe cycling. Traffic law enforcement might help until we have them.
RogerS
Established Member
Trouble is many of London's roads aren't wide enough to allow for cycle lanes.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Typo? Did you mean not wide enough for HGVs, buses etc?RogerS":il3vkgsx said:
Bikes don't need much space. On narrow roads there's a good case for giving them priority and having low speed limit for motors say 20 or below.
RogerS
Established Member
Jacob":2ezndwet said:
No, I meant not wide enough to have cycle lanes and lanes for other vehicles.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
They have to share the space then - but with better signage, slower speeds, cycling priority, etc as they do in a lot of European countries, without a problem.
RogerS
Established Member
Well I'm not going to debate this with you, Jacob.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Why not?
One thing that tends to get overlooked is that roads were improved, thanks to cyclists, long before the first motor vehicles.
http://www.vox.com/2015/3/19/8253035/ro ... rs-history
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... -for-roads
One thing that tends to get overlooked is that roads were improved, thanks to cyclists, long before the first motor vehicles.
http://www.vox.com/2015/3/19/8253035/ro ... rs-history
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... -for-roads
RogerS
Established Member
Because debating with you is like trying to nail jelly to a tree.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Hmm I see. :roll:
You mean you are a bad loser perhaps? :lol:
You mean you are a bad loser perhaps? :lol:
RogerS
Established Member
Jacob":2sawsdbh said:
No, a realist.
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