Crapola mags....

[crazylilting]

I to am frustrated with the woodworking magazines in the UK. I finally found where i can find FW and found another British one, sadly can't remember the name, that had at least one interesting article in it.

However I think that it is a reflection of the population here. Their isn't enough interest nor is there enough real woodworkers to sustain a high end woodworking magazine. DIY seems to be the target audience because that seems to be the national pastime. I rarely see any good woodworks done in this country which is quite shocking as British Craftsmen are touted in Canada, the country i was brought up in.

I thought i was moving to a country of craftsmen but to my shock and horror this isn't even remotely the case. I was glad to find this forum as i can see some hope. Perhaps it is the area i live in but it seems to be void of Crafts men. Thus i think the dumbing down of magazines IMO

 

[woodbloke]

What F&C needs is someone like Chris Swarz of American Woodworking, a real enthusiast, I`m sure if we were posting comments about his magazine we would get a post from him. Nothing I see has been posted by the F&C editors, the`ve really got a finger on the woodworking pulse---not!

That's an interesting comment, Mark. From time to time, we see editors of all the other British magazines posting here on the forum. Admittedly, some more often than others but, I do not believe I have ever seen an F&C editor (past or present) post here or on any other woodworking site. :?

The probable reason that the editors of F&C don't post is that they have their own site. I've dipped into it from time to time but overall it's truly dreadful. Having said that, I'll email Derek Jones and tell him that it's in his (and F&C's interests) to become a member of this venerable institution - Rob

 

[big soft moose]

In the latest issue I also think Kevin Ley is on a slippery slope,his cabinet is constructed with Dominoes, Biscuits and Pocket screws, not one hand cut joint.

I dont take F&C so i cant comment on the specidfic article but you do need to remember that not every reader is as skilled as maybe you are - and therefore there needs to be a range of articles and thus there is nothing wrong with some of them relying on biscuits and pocket holes etc

people like me who are just starting out in flat world projects need that sort of thing ( the last cabinet i built was basically screws and glue) in addition to the more inspirational projects with hand cut joints etc.

I do agree however with you about recycling articles being very poor form.

 

[Ironballs]

I do think F&C would gain a lot more credibility if it focused less on (as others have said) reviews of cordless drills and drivers and more on things like design. There's plenty of scope for exploring a very large topic and using what many other mags do which is to get a staff writer/guest contributor/recognised name to write a column on particular subjects

 

[woodbloke]

I do think F&C would gain a lot more credibility if it focused less on (as others have said) reviews of cordless drills and drivers and more on things like design. There's plenty of scope for exploring a very large topic and using what many other mags do which is to get a staff writer/guest contributor/recognised name to write a column on particular subjects

...and this is perzactly what Derek intends to do :wink: - Rob

 

[mark w]

softmoose,
I don`t think Kevin Ley lacks the skill to cut joints by hand, some of his pieces do have handcut dovetails e.tc. In fact what I should have said was that the piece in question did not have any traditional joints.
To me a tenon cut on the table saw is just as good as one cut with a tenon saw. There is nothing incorrect about jointing with dominoes or biscuits, I just feel that it is not right for a magazine which professes to to promote high end cabinet making. There are magazines out there more suited to this kind of work and for beginners. if you don`t try to cut traditional joints and just use biscuits or dominoes you will never cut a traditional joint, we all need something or someone to aspire to, or we just stay beginners. As for kevin Ley he seems to accept a customers budget and makes the piece within that, sometimes I feel he should just point them in the direction of the nearest Ikea.

Kind regards, Mark W

 

[woodbloke]

softmoose,
I don`t think Kevin Ley lacks the skill to cut joints by hand, some of his pieces do have handcut dovetails e.tc. In fact what I should have said was that the piece in question did not have any traditional joints.
To me a tenon cut on the table saw is just as good as one cut with a tenon saw. There is nothing incorrect about jointing with dominoes or biscuits, I just feel that it is not right for a magazine which professes to to promote high end cabinet making. There are magazines out there more suited to this kind of work and for beginners. if you don`ta try to cut traditional joints and just use biscuits or dominoes you will never cut a traditional joint, we all need something or someone to aspire to, or we just stay beginners. As for kevin Ley he seems to accept a customers budget and makes the piece within that, sometimes I feel he should just point them in the direction of the nearest Ikea.

Kind regards, Mark W

I agree about the comments regarding Leys's work...some of it makes me want to wince That said, he is a professional maker (ex RAF) and earns his living by making stuff, so the time element is key. Without going over old ground :roll: :lol: the use of dominos and other time saving techniques is entirely justified IMHO in his pieces if it's within the budget remit. If he were an amateur maker (where pressures of time is not a factor) and submitted to the mag (as I do) then I'd expect to see a bit more on traditional techniques. Don't forget also that the Barnsley 'shop will have a Domino :wink: - Rob

 

[ondablade]

Agree on the power tools!! :roll: I guess it's not by accident that many of the biggest suppliers in the UK concentrate on power tools.

On methods i guess there's a fair amount of commercial reality that intrudes when you live off your cabinetmaking.

I'm kind of torn over the whole thing (and about to test the reality of the situation) - is there in truth anything wrong with a well placed pocket screw? I've a friend with a very successful business making very high end €60 - 70K kitchens. He makes very nice stuff, used to do dovetails, but says his customers don't look for and will not pay extra for dovetail drawers for example. (of course maybe they shouldn't have to - i slag him to the effect that maybe he's demanding too much money for what he does - but he says most don't even know what you are talking about)

Meanwhile he's paid out a lot of money for a multi axis CNC machining centre, and uses it for cutting out (MDF!) cabinetry sheet - but with holes pre-drilled, rebates in situ and spot on accuracy. Goes together like a lego set. This was a response to problems in getting decent quality labour - they were spending a fortune sorting out errors inaccuracies. It left it so that he just needed flat pack assemblers, with design and most of quality in his hands.

FWW ran an article this month on a guy that rebates and pins his drawers, and they look very nice - albeit unlikely to be as strong as dovetails.

Plan B is probably machine cut dovetails - is that craftsmanship?

It's a pity to see traditional proven methods declining, but on the other hand it seems to me that the newer methods require lots of skill too. I struggle with resistance to change for the sake of it (and there's a fair amount of bull headed resistance to good stuff in woodworking), but on the other hand there's standards of design, materials, construction and so on that really do matter.

IKEA's design is pretty good, very good viewed from a manufacturing and logistics point of view - but they really skimp on materials. It's cheap and cheerful, it serves its place, but isn't for everybody.

The mag situation is a bit like that. New methods i can handle, DIY entry level machines and equipment i can handle provided they respond to real needs and are not just facilitating those pushing power tools (makes it much more accessible to the ordinary punter who will quickly find if he's drawn to working at a higher standard that he needs to upgrade anyway) - what buggers me is the emergence of superficial journalism and low standards that can't seem to effectively distinguish the quality of what they test, and so implies that you might as well buy the cheapest because it's not obviously different from anything else.

It's hard enough to get people to pay for good stuff anyway (how else did we end up with cheapo planes with bubble gum blades that basically don't work?) - a cabinet making mag should not be helping to accelerate this rush to the bottom.

Surely it must be possible to test and write in a manner that's specific enough to place a given bit of kit in context - in terms of others at it's own level, vs. other price points, and suitability for differing types of users???

ian

 

[yetloh]

I have never liked Kevin Ley's stuff in either design or construction but to be fair to him, he has never made any secret of the fact that he uses the cheapest method which will do the job, except where it shows, which is why he does hand cut dovetails. I guess that is his market niche and there is nothing wrong with that.

I do know that GMC people read this forum but perhaps it is GMC policy that they do not respond to it.

Jim

 

[Ironballs]

In the latest F&C thay make a point of showing how some professional makers use loose tenons and name dropped Ley, Fish, Ingham and the Barnsley Workshop. I'm not going to knock anyone who's guts enough to have a go at making a living from this, even if I don't like their design style.

I would happily point F&C in the direction of Singletrack magazine for an example of style and content on a very limited budget. This is a self published mag operating very much in a niche, but by and large the content is high end and consistent. They treat their readership very much like and extended club, which I think is what Nick Gibbs is trying to do

 

[crazylilting]

he's paid out a lot of money for a multi axis CNC machining centre, and uses it for cutting out (MDF!) cabinetry sheet - but with holes pre-drilled, rebates in situ and spot on accuracy. Goes together like a lego set. This was a response to problems in getting decent quality labour - they were spending a fortune sorting out errors inaccuracies. It left it so that he just needed flat pack assemblers, with design and most of quality in his hands.

This speaks volumes to me. I've seen other cabinet companies go the same way for the same reason. Skilled craftsmen are in very short supply thus reading material will not be for those who are actually skilled, unless they want to pay £20 per issue in my opinion. I've seen what the colleges here teach their apprentices as my partner works at the local college. In my opinion it needs a complete overhaul.

 

[mark w]

I agree with most of the above comments but I feel we should educate customers. If they don`t know what a dovetail is then explain it, explain the difference between hand cut and machined. Most people I have encountered who want bespoke furniture do know a bit about it and want an authentic handmade piece.
As for kitchens which is my trade (as a fitter not maker), in my area we have two high end companies, both charge large amounts of money for bespoke kitchens. One company uses the Woodrat for dovetailing drawers
which do look hand cut, the other company uses some other make of jig which really do look machine cut (poor), at £70.000 to £100.000 for a kitchen I would expect handcut dovetails. I believe greed plays a part in this. As for the lack of skilled labour, perhaps these companies should be ploughing money into training rather than CNC machinery.

Kind regards, Mark W

 

[woodbloke]

In F&C 159 there was an excellent article by Richard Jones (of this parrish) on pricing a job.
For a drawer with hand cut dovetails and a solid bottom, charge 8 hours per drawer. For a machine dovetailed or a finger jointed drawer charge 1.5hrs. There are discounts that can be calculated depending on the number of drawers in a piece.
I thought that particular article was one of the best that I'd seen for a very long time, and was a real eye-opener regarding just how to price a job - Rob

 

[yetloh]

I have no probem with CNC in fine furniture. Have a look at this piece http://www.waywood.co.uk/portfolio/arch ... W_Open.jpg It is by Waywood and is very like the piece they are showing at the Making the Future exhibition in London. That piece has the sides contoured in three planes and this was done with CNC; it looks stunning. Also, the drawers are pinned with oval pins (how do they do that?) and looks equally good. If Chippendale had had access to CNC I am sure he would have used it - MDF likewise.

Jim

 

[mark w]

Yetloh,
I like the chest of drawers and I also like the look of other cnc cut furniture, but to me they are made by computer programmers not cabinet makers!
The process of making for me sometimes outweighs the finished product,
a sharp plane, a sharp chisel, whatever tool are a joy to use.

Regards, Mark W

 

[big soft moose]

softmoose,
I don`t think Kevin Ley lacks the skill to cut joints by hand, some of his pieces do have handcut dovetails e.tc. In fact what I should have said was that the piece in question did not have any traditional joints.

i'm aware of that - what i meant was that those who do lack the skills (like moi) need articles that are acheivable now as well as projects which are more aspirational - therefore there is nothing wrong with the ocasional article using biscuita and pocket hole joinery - but i agree that there should also be articles using higher skills.

 

[jjc_uk]

Popular woodworking was running a series called "I can do that" which was easier weekend projects for the beginner, I quite liked the idea .

 

[crazylilting]

I believe greed plays a part in this. As for the lack of skilled labour, perhaps these companies should be ploughing money into training rather than CNC machinery.

This could be partly true, however the reality is that most people just want a job, not a future as a craftsman, and the ones that do you end up training as your competition. So what are you left with? It is very expensive to train someone and then they expect to be paid highly for your sacrifice and when you don't or want a bit of return on your investment in them they just move on. It's like hostage taking.

Why should a company plough money into training when the benefits aren't there? I certainly wouldn't hire anyone, and teach them, but would hire someone who is skilled. Or skilled enough that I wouldn't have to spend a lot of time teaching them. It is simply easier and more profitable to dumb everything down into steps that you can train a monkey to do and do all the fine detailing yourself.

It would be different if someone actually took the initiative to learn and bring their skills to the work place, but this is so rare. rant over

 

[ondablade]

It seems to me that it's all about values and balance.

Speaking as a guy finding his way into high end territory i can't help thinking that with the internet and the amount of published material around information is so much more accessible than it ever was - years ago you would have had to serve a long apprenticeship to access much of it. But it takes some ploughing through to extract good data, and it's made much more difficult by intentionally misleading stuff which in the end is surely the result of greed in all sorts of quarters.

So of course it's appropriate (unless you are an exclusively high end mag) to cover entry level stuff - but you have to place it accordingly. It seems to me too that in the case of both what the maker offers, and what the mags write about there has to be something aspirational - something that acts to raise the standards and sights of both the customer and the maker.

It seems likely that as you say excessive greed on the part of the maker (effectively using the customers' lack of awareness to palm off very ordinary stuff), and a failure to train makers to decent standards (whether with the help of mag articles or otherwise) must inevitable lead to a decline in standards.

It may be possible in the short term to get good money for mediocre stuff (whether it's the result of lack of skills or greed), but sooner or later the customer will wise up. With the result that the perceived value and price commanded by work must drop.

As you say too its very much (for the same reason) in our interest to educate customers, and ensure that we remain committed to delivering both the reality and the perception of value. If we don't it'll be back to the days when working wood left one almost on the breadline.

TV and other forms of media, as well as consumer goods are swamped in this sort of short term commercially driven 'bling' and hype as opposed to genuine quality and value - so much of what is on offer is 'so what' in tone. (who needs yet another set of LEDs on their sneakers :roll: )

I don't think the problem is technology or new methods per se - as you say Yet and Mark it can be applied with good deisgn in a highly skilled and creative way to produce stuff that's really special - with genuine whoa! factor. It can off course too be used to produce stuff cheaply that isn't what it claims to be too.....

 

[BMac]

This is a very interesting discussion and it reminded me of a superb video I saw on YouTube where a blacksmith answers the question he is asked most often - 'How do I become an apprentice?'

Here it is - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QMbn6d7cSk

I think this is 5 minutes of super advice.

Brendan