Council fined £20k for saw injury - Saw Stop would have prevented this

[Jacob]

The more I look the more I see Sawstop as the ultimate daft gadget. There are so many cheaper and more effective ways of achieving the same ends.
The idea of finger contact trigger is basically stupid - it'd be much easier and cheaper to use a power feed and suitable guards, keeping fingers right away from the blade. It'd protect the absolute novice and he'd get a better cut too if he could work out how to use it.
Failing that the idea of keeping your fingers away with push sticks is fail safe and costs peanuts - and is applicable to nearly all other machines.
Woodwork seems to be full of daft and expensive gadgets.

 

[Spectric]

Woodwork seems to be full of daft and expensive gadgets.

Not always gadgets, there are a lot that are aimed at allowing anyone to make stuff in wood without having to become a master woodworker and master the traditional woodworkers toolkit, festool has spawned an entire business around this concept.

 

[TRITON]

The more I look the more I see Sawstop as the ultimate daft gadget. There are so many cheaper and more effective ways of achieving the same ends.
The idea of finger contact trigger is basically stupid - it'd be much easier and cheaper to use a power feed and suitable guards, keeping fingers right away from the blade. It'd protect the absolute novice and he'd get a better cut too if he could work out how to use it.
Failing that the idea of keeping your fingers away with push sticks is fail safe and costs peanuts - and is applicable to nearly all other machines.
Woodwork seems to be full of daft and expensive gadgets.

Oh i agree there are a lot of daft and expensive 'gadgets' for example one for cutting dovetails involving magnets. Or some 'known' woodworker tacks his name onto the front, as if that makes you a skilled cabinetmaker.

This however is a safety feature, designed to make the risk of an accident the thing of the past.
Much i suppose like the crown guard or the riving knife. Or the seatbelt, or the airbag on a car.

 

[Agent_zed]

The more I look the more I see Sawstop as the ultimate daft gadget. There are so many cheaper and more effective ways of achieving the same ends.
The idea of finger contact trigger is basically stupid - it'd be much easier and cheaper to use a power feed and suitable guards, keeping fingers right away from the blade. It'd protect the absolute novice and he'd get a better cut too if he could work out how to use it.
Failing that the idea of keeping your fingers away with push sticks is fail safe and costs peanuts - and is applicable to nearly all other machines.
Woodwork seems to be full of daft and expensive gadgets.

It's not a daft gadget. You may disagree with it, but it is not daft. It does the job it is designed to do i.e minimise bodily harm in the event of blade contact. Nothing daft whatsoever about that.

It not only protects the user but will also protect anyone who, for whatever reason, decided to put their fingers in there. Push sticks will not prevent a child coming to 'help daddy' when your back is turned. Or when a worker knocks something over and hits you square in the back pushing you forward. Sure you can say you shouldn't ever leave your saw unattended or out of view and you should have ninja reflexes to all situations but if you are wearing your safety glasses and ear defenders and your dust extractor is running as per H&S are you fully aware of your surroundings all of the time?

I don't believe any normal person would look at a spinning blade on a sawstop and think it's ok I don't mind if i stick my hand in there. It will still cut you. It is in addition to training and push sticks, not replacing them.

 

[Jacob]

Oh i agree there are a lot of daft and expensive 'gadgets' for example one for cutting dovetails involving magnets. Or some 'known' woodworker tacks his name onto the front, as if that makes you a skilled cabinetmaker.

This however is a safety feature, designed to make the risk of an accident the thing of the past.
Much i suppose like the crown guard or the riving knife. Or the seatbelt, or the airbag on a car.

It's the idea of actual finger contact which seems to me the weakest detail and missed opportunity.
If you must have sophisticated and expensive electronics to stop you cutting a finger off, then a system which reacts when your hand is merely closer than say 5" would be better, would give the machine more time to react, and be a training aid in itself.
You'd soon get the hang of keeping your fingers out of the way even if you were five years old or pi**ed as a brewer's fart!

 

[Fergie 307]

Sounds like the employer deserves to be prosecuted.

Health and Safety violations is one of the areas where a director cannot rely on saying the company is a different entity. Directors can personally be prosecuted which I believe is quite right.

I don’t understand why this saw stop debate rages on. Surely the best situation is to have good and meaningful training as part of a safety conscious culture in the workplace and a saw stop fitted to further reduce the potential for a rare lapse in concentration resulting in a life changing injury. We wear seat belts and have airbags but (in the vast majority of cases) still try to drive safely.

I think the point was that you can deliver all the training you like, it is effectively impossible to ensure that every employee will follow it.
In the case outlined why should the company be liable if, having given the worker the necessary training, they choose to ignore it.
I agree that if it was highlighted to management then they should have had a word with the guy, or refresh his training, but would that make any appreciable difference. Likelihood is that his attitude would very probably be to sit through any training, then carry on as before.
We really do need to get away from this idea that people should always be able to blame someone else for what is essentially their own stupidity.
I have seen numerous people who deliberately disabled safety features like the chuck guard on a lathe, so the machine could be run with it raised.
Using a saw without push sticks, assuming they were available, falls into the same category.
On your own head be it.

 

[Jacob]

Or if electronic devices are the thing - how about some sort of bank card device and pin code to switch on, only issued to suitably qualified personnel?

 

[Agent_zed]

It's the idea of actual finger contact which seems to me the weakest detail and missed opportunity.
If you must have sophisticated and expensive electronics to stop you cutting a finger off, then a system which reacts when your hand is merely closer than say 5" would be better, would give the machine more time to react, and be a training aid in itself.
You'd soon get the hang of keeping your fingers out of the way even if you were five years old or pi**ed as a fart!

Job done, it exists https://www.altendorfgroup.com/en/machines/altendorf-hand-guard/. This is a sliding table saw with AI camera system which retracts the blade if your hand gets within a certain distance to the blade.

I'd probably prefer sawstop system as it relies less on a computer doing the work and more on electrical resistance.

 

[Jacob]

I think the point was that you can deliver all the training you like, it is effectively impossible to ensure that every employee will follow it.
In the case outlined why should the company be liable if, having given the worker the necessary training, they choose to ignore it.
I agree that if it was highlighted to management then they should have had a word with the guy, or refresh his training, but would that make any appreciable difference. Likelihood is that his attitude would very probably be to sit through any training, then carry on as before.
We really do need to get away from this idea that people should always be able to blame someone else for what is essentially their own stupidity.
I have seen numerous people who deliberately disabled safety features like the chuck guard on a lathe, so the machine could be run with it raised.
Using a saw without push sticks, assuming they were available, falls into the same category.
On your own head be it.

I presume you have bought one then. If not why not?

 

[deema]

I have a friend who is an Elf and Safety ‘policeman’ his favourite question he tells me is ‘do you know of, or are aware of a system, device or another way of working that would make this operation safer?’ He tells me that if you or any of your staff answer yes to this question the company is guilty of negligence and WILL be prosecuted unless you can provide a clad iron reason why you aren’t using it if there is an accident. Scary isn’t it! So, now your all aware of saw stop and other systems just pray your staff don’t have an accident on the table saw. I hear the food and company in the metal hotel isn’t really highly rated!

 

[John Brown]

So we are saying that the only way to test this is a destructive test, that is not good because I would not like to think that rather than positive proof that it works you just need faith. If that was a safety system in an industrial enviroment then it has to be proven to work with an end to end test and there should be no unrevealed failure modes. For me I would be buying an expensive saw with a feature that would never be used or needed simply because I never put my fingers anywhere near the blade knowing the consequences, in fact I would not purchase on the grounds that I do not want my way of thinking or working safely to be compromised by any unwanted thoughts that the saw is safe and cannot do harm especially when the feature cannot be proven without destruction.

It's like the airbags on your car, or the squib in your seat belt pretensioners, they're both destroyed if deployed. Do you test the airbags in your car every time you get in? Have you ever tested them, in fact?

 

[Nick.]

Job done, it exists https://www.altendorfgroup.com/en/machines/altendorf-hand-guard/. This is a sliding table saw with AI camera system which retracts the blade if your hand gets within a certain distance to the blade.

I'd probably prefer sawstop system as it relies less on a computer doing the work and more on electrical resistance.

In the meat cutting industry (bandsaws) they also have it with gloves being detected

https://www.guardianbandsaw.com/

 

[Inspector]

Pete - while I'm not familiar with SAWSTOP, you say that a 'flashing red signifies that if the blade were spinning the brake would be fired'.

Are you saying that a flashing red cuts off the power to the saw ? If it doesn't, aren't we back to square one where training, concentration, common sense, or supervised use come into play ?

The red light is only part of the test circuitry. It is not cutting power to the saw.

Our flesh has a different resistance to current than wood does. The saw constantly monitors this so if it detects flesh, power is sent to the wire fuse holding the aluminium brake away from the blade. The wire melts and a heavy spring forces the aluminium into the blade and stops the blade and at the same time the inertia of the stopping blade drops the entire carriage below the table. All this happens in a few milliseconds protecting the operator. There is lots of video of this on the web including SawStop's site. https://www.sawstop.com

To get the saw going again after changing your drawers you undo the cartridge key (pin) and remove the nut holding the blade. You pry them until they come off together, the blade being jammed deeply into the aluminium block. Both are scrap and you replace with a new blade and brake and you are back in business again.

If you send the cartridge or the chip from it back to SawStop they will check it to see what fired the brake. If it was your pinky they will send you a new cartridge for free. If it fired because you cut metal etc they won't. A cartridge is about $140Cad and you will have to get a new blade too because the stopping forces can warp the blade and damage the carbide teeth. And that is why I have never deliberately set off/tested the brake with meat. Costs too much to play "What happens".

To my knowledge the technology is only being applied to job site saws in your part of the world. So you guys are a ways off from seeing the technology in cabinet saws. Nobody is forcing any of you to chuck your push sticks and guards so there is no reason to get your junk in a knot. It is voluntary here and will be for many years to come. I don't see it being any different for you.

I'll leave you to keep beating the flesh off the pony until the bones are dust. The same as most discussions have been since the technology was introduced. Battle on.

Pete

 

[Blackswanwood]

I think the point was that you can deliver all the training you like, it is effectively impossible to ensure that every employee will follow it.
In the case outlined why should the company be liable if, having given the worker the necessary training, they choose to ignore it.
I agree that if it was highlighted to management then they should have had a word with the guy, or refresh his training, but would that make any appreciable difference. Likelihood is that his attitude would very probably be to sit through any training, then carry on as before.
We really do need to get away from this idea that people should always be able to blame someone else for what is essentially their own stupidity.
I have seen numerous people who deliberately disabled safety features like the chuck guard on a lathe, so the machine could be run with it raised.
Using a saw without push sticks, assuming they were available, falls into the same category.
On your own head be it.

I see your point and agree with the logic of people being responsible for their own decisions. If the employee in the example knowingly flouted the rules and was injured he/she should bear some responsibility.

It’s not really that simple though. Having an “old lag employee” flouting sensible health and safety rules sets a bad example to the less experienced and easily influenced employees. Turning a blind eye to breaking the rules around health and safety creates a culture that encourages accidents to happen. The employer is failing all employees in allowing this to continue.

Allowing employees to take shortcuts with health and safety is also open to abuse by bad employers.

Undoubtedly there are examples where health and safety seems a bit daft. Employers should in my opinion though be accountable for keeping employees safe by enforcing good practice. If they don’t they should be prosecuted.

 

[TRITON]

In the meat cutting industry (bandsaws) they also have it with gloves being detected

I think this bloke might need it, or one day he might see a blue glove fly across the table



A good thing about butchers bandsaws is they always have a great depth of cut. Not always a lot of throat, but you can have a saw with an 8" throat, but with a 12-15" depth, and in table top format.
A corresponding wood saw for a 12" depth is going to be big and be in the 90-120kg weight.

Plus they are really really built to last. 2nd hand would be a good source if its the depth you need as opposed to throat.

 

[Spectric]

The wire melts and a heavy spring forces the aluminium into the blade and stops the blade and at the same time the inertia of the stopping blade drops the entire carriage below the table. All this happens in a few milliseconds protecting the operator. There is lots of video of this on the web including SawStop's site.

The best safety approach is simplicity excluding the operator, once you start to add any complexity then you have issues with reliability and guaranteeing that the safety system will perform on demand. The best way to look at sawstop is that you forget it is fitted and treat the saw like any other so applying safe working practices and not putting fingers anywhere near the blade by using some type of push sticks otherwise complacency could set in and you adopt unsafe working practices thinking you are safer than you might be.

It would be a good idea if once sawstop has been activated that the machine has to be returned for repair at a reasonable cost so that the person has time to think about what they did wrong and that they can review their working practices before getting the machine back.

All safety starts with the person, ie you and rather than trying to pass the buck regarding safety you should take full responsability and think that if I need sawstop then should I actually be using the machine, I am admitting that I have concerns over my ability to work in a safe manner.

In terms of car safety, air bags and such have reduced the hazzards but increased the risk because too many people feel to safe and take more chances without actually realising it because they have been told they are in a safe enviroment and are protected.

 

[Keith 66]

An aspect of using circular saws in Schools is that kids projects are small & a lot of usage will be cutting small bits of plywood or other sheet materials, often a circular saw is the wrong tool for the job & as anyone who has used one much knows cutting short bits is riskier.
Also pressure on Technicians is often high with Teachers expecting them to be mind readers!

 

[Ed Weber]

If I teach someone how to use a tablesaw safely, properly, then they have the knowledge to operate most any tablesaw the same way.
If you just purchase a SawStop, then that's the only "safe" saw idiots can operate "safely".

When was the last time you touched a stove to see if it really was hot?

 

[TRITON]

An aspect of using circular saws in Schools is that kids projects are small & a lot of usage will be cutting small bits of plywood or other sheet materials, often a circular saw is the wrong tool for the job & as anyone who has used one much knows cutting short bits is riskier.
Also pressure on Technicians is often high with Teachers expecting them to be mind readers!

Im pretty sure kids in schools do not have access to table saws, even under close supervision. The teacher/technician can use machinery, the kids are limited to hand saws, possibly a jig saw, and a chisel, or maybe at a stretch a morticer or bandsaw. But the table saw or surfacer planer i very much think thats a no no.

 

[Spectric]

Do they even have metalwork or woodwork workshops anymore ? Back in the 70's we were let loose with chisels and metalworking lathes and the only injury I can recal is the teacher cutting himself with a chisel.