Coronavirus

[Trainee neophyte]

I don't have any chloroquine, and I don't intend to take any, because it is a really nasty poison, which is why it works on the malaria parasite. It may or may not be useful for this virus - I have no knowledge. However, Morocco has bought the entire stock available: https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2020- ... 4IZL8.html

More interesting (from the original article I linked to) is that someone seems to nicked the entire French government stock (and possibly sold it to the Moroccan government?) I don't care particularly about its proven efficacy or otherwise - much more fun is the weird goings on and corruption that may or may not be happening across the Channel. Good to see modern, western societies are just as corrupt as your average sub-Saharan African dictatorship, when push comes to shove; they just do it differently.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

I don't have any chloroquine, and I don't intend to take any, because it is a really nasty poison, which is why it works on the malaria parasite. It may or may not be useful for this virus - I have no knowledge. However, Morocco has bought the entire stock available: https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2020- ... 4IZL8.html

More interesting (from the original article I linked to) is that someone seems to nicked the entire French government stock (and possibly sold it to the Moroccan government?) I don't care particularly about its proven efficacy or otherwise - much more fun is the weird goings on and corruption that may or may not be happening across the Channel. Good to see modern, western societies are just as corrupt as your average sub-Saharan African dictatorship, when push comes to shove; they just do it differently.

Why not just read a more reliable source? It's all here: https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... s-patients and https://www.gov.uk/government/news/chlo ... -treatment

Yes, stupid populist demagogues are talking this drug up - probably as much from profound ignorance as a desire to be seen to be making some positive personal contribution. I took some a few years ago as a malaria prophylactic and it gave me hallucinations - although I didn't get malaria (so of course it works!! :lol: ) I understand that India is the main/only producer of the drug and now doesn't want to share it. If it is found to be effective against c19 then its anti-inflammatory properties may form part of the explanation.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

I predict two longer term effects of the current situation:
1 a baby boom;
2 rampant inflation.

Perhaps I listed those in the wrong order.......

 

[Andy Kev.]

[

Trump is a glory seeker, if he can be seen to resolve this with as little damage as possible then he gets a lot of ego massaging. I doubt he would be peddling fantasy which will ruin that outcome, he like most political leaders are just taking advice from "the science experts" and giving it out.

oh and i put it in quotes because, just because you have a job doesn't mean you are good at it.

What do you think are the chances of getting to the top in any one of the sciences without having a proven, rock-solid track record of achievement?

It's not like politics, the arts or journalism where it is possible to just bluff your way to the top.

Trump is a number of things, most of them questionable. I doubt very much that his scientific advisors lack credibility and if anybody alleges that then the proof should be easy to come by.

What it amounts to is that if Trump is parroting good advice, then he is making sense. His motivation is neither here nor there.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Now ask yourself what is the probability of Trump, in his capacity as a scientifically uneducated layman, plucking the name of a drug out of the air and saying that it may be a cure. Do you think it might be more probable that he was given this information by one of his scientific advisors?

Also ask yourself what are the odds of your making the fact that Trump is saying something the key indicator of its likely truth? In political matters you may well have a point, given his track record. In specific scientific matters, you may well be plumbing Trumpian depths of logic.

I've asked myself the first question and based on his track record wouldn't bet on him having paid attention to his scientific advisers. I'd bet first someone mentioned it and he embellished it wanting to be associated with it's discovery.

On your second point of guidance for me as was widely reported in the UK Press (and please let's not get into one of those silly debates about the press!) to be claiming here was a wonder cure was not the case. I'm not sure I'm joining the Donald Trump school of logic by any measure.

Perhaps my wider point is that the peddling of spurious online articles relating to research on cures and conspiracy theories may be entertaining for some but is not in my view helpful to anyone.

However, it's a free world and it's within my gift to ignore it!

 

[Trainee neophyte]

I don't have any chloroquine, and I don't intend to take any, because it is a really nasty poison, which is why it works on the malaria parasite. It may or may not be useful for this virus - I have no knowledge. However, Morocco has bought the entire stock available: https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2020- ... 4IZL8.html

More interesting (from the original article I linked to) is that someone seems to nicked the entire French government stock (and possibly sold it to the Moroccan government?) I don't care particularly about its proven efficacy or otherwise - much more fun is the weird goings on and corruption that may or may not be happening across the Channel. Good to see modern, western societies are just as corrupt as your average sub-Saharan African dictatorship, when push comes to shove; they just do it differently.

Why not just read a more reliable source? It's all here: https://www.theguardian.com/science/202 ... s-patients and https://www.gov.uk/government/news/chlo ... -treatment

Yes, stupid populist demagogues are talking this drug up - probably as much from profound ignorance as a desire to be seen to be making some positive personal contribution. I took some a few years ago as a malaria prophylactic and it gave me hallucinations - although I didn't get malaria (so of course it works!! :lol: ) I understand that India is the main/only producer of the drug and now doesn't want to share it. If it is found to be effective against c19 then its anti-inflammatory properties may form part of the explanation.

Thank you for the pukka gen, but again missing the point. Someone has, allegedly, stolen the entire French strategic reserve of this drug. Every country seems to be banning export of it, and the French pharma companies are being implicated in some sort of shakedown of the public. The article I linked to originally has lots of info about French government shenanigans, infighting, backbiting etc. It's the weekend, it's a fun article being beastly about the French - enjoy.

My initial question to a serious, unimpeachable Paris source, jurist Valerie Bugault, was about the liaisons dangereuses between Macronism and Big Pharma and especially about the mysterious “disappearance” – more likely outright theft – of all the stocks of chloroquine in possession of the French government.

https://asiatimes.com/2020/03/why-franc ... irus-cure/

That one is just a bit of frivolity, the following is more relevant: https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/

According to the latest data of the Italian National Health Institute ISS, the average age of the positively-tested deceased in Italy is currently about 81 years. 10% of the deceased are over 90 years old. 90% of the deceased are over 70 years old.

80% of the deceased had suffered from two or more chronic diseases. 50% of the deceased had suffered from three or more chronic diseases. The chronic diseases include in particular cardiovascular problems, diabetes, respiratory problems and cancer.

There is quite a bit more, with all the sources linked.

 

[craigs]

[

Trump is a glory seeker, if he can be seen to resolve this with as little damage as possible then he gets a lot of ego massaging. I doubt he would be peddling fantasy which will ruin that outcome, he like most political leaders are just taking advice from "the science experts" and giving it out.

oh and i put it in quotes because, just because you have a job doesn't mean you are good at it.

What do you think are the chances of getting to the top in any one of the sciences without having a proven, rock-solid track record of achievement?

It's not like politics, the arts or journalism where it is possible to just bluff your way to the top.

Trump is a number of things, most of them questionable. I doubt very much that his scientific advisors lack credibility and if anybody alleges that then the proof should be easy to come by.

What it amounts to is that if Trump is parroting good advice, then he is making sense. His motivation is neither here nor there.

Ok

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I predict two longer term effects of the current situation:
1 a baby boom;
2 rampant inflation.
Perhaps I listed those in the wrong order.......

You forgot the dramatic increase in the divorce numbers.

 

[Lons]

Watching breakfast tv this morning a GP said it all as far as I'm concerned when asked how to deal with questionable information being spread around on social media and the internet.

Not exact words but basically Choose very carefully who you listen to and that should be the real experts, everyone out there is an "expert" at the minute, people should stick to what they know"

Makes a lot of sense to me!

 

[Trainee neophyte]

What do you think are the chances of getting to the top in any one of the sciences without having a proven, rock-solid track record of achievement?

It's not like politics, the arts or journalism where it is possible to just bluff your way to the top...

Possibly my favourite quote of all: "Science makes progress funeral by funeral: the old are never converted by the new doctrines, they simply are replaced by a new generation." (attributed to Max Planck)

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Watching breakfast tv this morning a GP said it all as far as I'm concerned when asked how to deal with questionable information being spread around on social media and the internet.
Not exact words but basically Choose very carefully who you listen to and that should be the real experts, everyone out there is an "expert" at the minute, people should stick to what they know"
Makes a lot of sense to me!

It would make sense to me to dedicate a BBC channel to it. All verified information could well publicised, all nonsense debunked. It would also give us a much needed rest from the blanket coverage - sometime the more people hear, the less notice they actually take.

 

[Just4Fun]

What web sites about corona virus are people using?

I have been looking for a good reliable source of statistics about the virus and how the number of cases grows. This site:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
has the sort of information I am looking for and as far as I know it is reliable and accurate (as far as anything can be at present). The problem is that it only gives data for today and yesterday. I would like to be able to get this data for any date since this virus was first tracked. Does anyone know where I could find that?

 

[Andy Kev.]

I've never come across that one before. It's actually quite deep.

There's one thing I've noticed on here and in conversations with friends in the real world. Those with a scientific cum technical background tend on the whole to be a bit more relaxed about this crisis than those who are not.

I have absolutely no intention whatsoever of being patronising here and please don't take it that way but it seems to me that if you have no scientific knowledge, two sensible courses of action are available:

a. Do take the official advice and stick to it and if you have a god, maybe do some praying if you are seriously worried.

b. Start boning up on how viruses and epidemics work. There are plenty of popular science books aimed at the interested layman/woman and IMO you would find them to be a great source of reassurance because a viral epidemic these days doesn't deserve the kind of reaction that a biblical plague or the black death would have generated. You'll also end up in a position where you can shut up the loud mouths in the cyber pub.

And in general terms, stay away from non-official internet sources on the subject as if you are not scientifically knowledgeable it is very hard to decide which are rubbish and which are good.

 

[Chris152]

Who has 'no scientific knowledge'? Come on, who is it?

 

[Trainee neophyte]

What web sites about corona virus are people using?

I have been looking for a good reliable source of statistics about the virus and how the number of cases grows. This site:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
has the sort of information I am looking for and as far as I know it is reliable and accurate (as far as anything can be at present). The problem is that it only gives data for today and yesterday. I would like to be able to get this data for any date since this virus was first tracked. Does anyone know where I could find that?

It does have lots of pretty graphs if you scroll down. Data is from 15 Feb onwards. You can click on each country in the table to get their own stats for eg: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Who has 'no scientific knowledge'? Come on, who is it?

I know! I know!!

Pick me!!!

 

[Andy Kev.]

I suggest to you that it is anybody who has not been involved in the practice of science at tertiary level education. The difference between that and bashing through the periodic table and being made aware of e.g. the very basics of photosynthesis at school is enormous.

The reason I make the above suggestion is that all the official advice is stemming from expert knowledge in virology and epidemiology. From what I can see from the nature of much reaction to it, is that many of those who are unhappy with it clearly have little knowledge of either. They're taking it on as if they had come out padded up for a game of cricket only to find themselves in the middle of a rugby match.

And I suspect that the reason that many folk are reacting the way they are is that the measures and all the attendant fears are going directly to them personally. If a little knowledge is a dangerous thing then virtually no knowledge is (intellectually) more or less lethal. And then of course there are the people whose reactions are swayed to greater or lesser extents by politics.

Knowledge in the matter of this crisis will be a source of great reassurance and it will help with best practice in implementing the official advice. Of course most people will not bother about acquiring any such knowledge and the silliness will persist and attitudes will harden.

 

[MusicMan]

Two days ago I saw an interview with a scientist who claimed that certain molecular structures on the virus were identified very quickly by the Chinese and passed to scientists worldwide. They then did computer modelling of all known drugs to see which would be a literal physical fit on the structures as making the fit neutralises the viruses. Three candidates emerged. One of them is an anti-malarial drug (which may well be what Trump was on about). All three are undergoing trials, as you may imagine.

.

Not sure who was in the interview you saw, but this is pretty much exactly what I posted in this thread a couple of days ago. My source was a senior Oxford professor (a colleague and friend) who has been involved in the work. It is true that all countries with stocks of the target drugs have prohibited their export, and that they are all being trialled. That is all that we shall know until trials are concluded. It would be foolhardy in the extreme for an individual to try any of these drugs until trials are completed.

 

[Andy Kev.]

I can't remember the bloke's name but I can remember that he was an academic and/or professor and I think I saw the interview on BBC World.

Incidentally, the official predictions for the spread of the disease in Germany seem to have a degree of accuracy. This week is supposed to see a large increase in cases. The district in which I live has gone from a total of about 60 cases last Thursday week to a total of about 260 today. This puts the district at 2 cases per thousand of population.

 

[lurker]

I suggest to you that it is anybody who has not been involved in the practice of science at tertiary level education. The difference between that and bashing through the periodic table and being made aware of e.g. the very basics of photosynthesis at school is enormous.

The reason I make the above suggestion is that all the official advice is stemming from expert knowledge in virology and epidemiology. From what I can see from the nature of much reaction to it, is that many of those who are unhappy with it clearly have little knowledge of either. They're taking it on as if they had come out padded up for a game of cricket only to find themselves in the middle of a rugby match.

And I suspect that the reason that many folk are reacting the way they are is that the measures and all the attendant fears are going directly to them personally. If a little knowledge is a dangerous thing then virtually no knowledge is (intellectually) more or less lethal. And then of course there are the people whose reactions are swayed to greater or lesser extents by politics.

Knowledge in the matter of this crisis will be a source of great reassurance and it will help with best practice in implementing the official advice. Of course most people will not bother about acquiring any such knowledge and the silliness will persist and attitudes will harden.

Although it is 40 years since I worked in medical microbiology I fully understand what you are saying.
Over the years, when I hear a scientist say “I think”, “it’s my theory that “, “ evidence may suggests “.
I am (because of my training) hearing something different to what a journalist does.
Theory presented as fact makes better copy.