Core tool kit

[lurker]

Most inhabitants of this forum are what a 100 years ago would be called gentlemen carpenters, we do not actually do it to earn a living.
We have two hobbies, accumulating tools and making stuff.
I really enjoy fixing and using old kit. I get, but resist gear acquisition syndrome.
Firms like LV cater for those with GAS and I suspect there was a market like this in the past.

I probably possess ten fold the hand tools I need or use.
I have read Jacobs ,brad nailer etc etc posts for many years and have to say the woodworker in me tends to agree with him more and more.

Neither Jacob nor those who get upset by him are wrong, just their motives and targets are not the same.

 

[bridger]

I'd say Jacob performs an important role here: the contrarian outlier. someone has to be there to resist the ever present pull of the trendy gadget-du-jour. of course, as a kneejerk responder, he'll totally miss out on genuine innovation, but given the ratio of innovation to gadget in the real world, he'll be right a not insignificant percentage of the time.


Jacob- do you have somewhere a gallery of your work? I suspect that you are in fact someone who produces actual woodwork. and that at least some of it is quite good.

Edit: on your profile is a link to: http://www.owdman./co.uk. as I suspected, some good work there.

 

[bugbear]

Of course, as a kneejerk responder, he'll totally miss out on genuine innovation, but given the ratio of innovation to gadget in the real world, he'll be right a not insignificant percentage of the time.

He's as accurate as a stopped clock?

In the last thread that mentioned wheel/cutting gauges he sent much verbiage decrying them, then moved on to decrying marking knives.

Of course, 6 months later he was praising marking knives highly ("trad", a term of high praise in Jacob speak), but saying that everyone else was using them wrong. :roll:

I don't think the actual utility of cutting gauges or marking knives changed at any point during all this.

BugBear

 

[lurker]

But how much genuine innovation is there. Not much that I can see.
The fact, as I see it, is that a deep pocket is no substitute for craftsmanship.

That not to say playing with tools is an unworthy bloke thing. All bloke hobbies comprise of buying fancy kit.

Lets face it there are only a handful of contributors here who are not just playing.
And there is nothing wrong with that

 

[iNewbie]

I really enjoy fixing and using old kit. I get, but resist gear acquisition syndrome.
Firms like LV cater for those with GAS and I suspect there was a market like this in the past.

Jacob's fixation is on newb's being coshed over the back-of-the-head to buy any new fangled item LV/LN come up with only, its all a bit, Daily Mail hysteria...

They can't afford too. Older people with more financial spends, can.

 

[Jacob]

Of course, as a kneejerk responder, he'll totally miss out on genuine innovation, but given the ratio of innovation to gadget in the real world, he'll be right a not insignificant percentage of the time.

He's as accurate as a stopped clock?

In the last thread that mentioned wheel/cutting gauges he sent much verbiage decrying them, then moved on to decrying marking knives.

Of course, 6 months later he was praising marking knives highly ("trad", a term of high praise in Jacob speak), but saying that everyone else was using them wrong. :roll:

I don't think the actual utility of cutting gauges or marking knives changed at any point during all this.

BugBear

I think you have misunderstood what I said BB, as ever :roll:
Can you point me to the thread with praise of marking knives? I know you take more notice of what I say than I do myself.

 

[J_SAMa]

Hello,

The wheels can be reversed.

Mike.

Yes I tried that. With mine The screw loud loosen quite easily . Also the wheel's bevel pushed the fence away from the stock. A pin gauge doesn't do that as there is less contact at any given point.
Don't get me wrong I still love my wheel gauge for marking housings, rebates and such. I'm just saying different tools are for different jobs. You can't replace a pin gauge with a wheel gauge just as you can't a smoothing plane with a jointer.

 

[lurker]

I really enjoy fixing and using old kit. I get, but resist gear acquisition syndrome.
Firms like LV cater for those with GAS and I suspect there was a market like this in the past.

Jacob's fixation is on newb's being coshed over the back-of-the-head to buy any new fangled item LV/LN come up with only, its all a bit, Daily Mail hysteria...

They can't afford too. Older people with more financial spends, can.

Every bloke hobby is the same. I am into photography and clearly the camera companies only thrive because folks are convinced the latest machine will make them better photographers. LN etc are the same.

I have a camera and lens that 8 years ago was the best pro kit available it would have cost near 4 k. I bought it for £300. It's way beyond my abilities but still takes decent photos and is a joy to use. Never again will I buy new and that pretty much goes for my tools too.

If you have the dosh indulge yourself but its not essential to have all this kit to make decent stuff.

 

[bridger]

Never again will I buy new and that pretty much goes for my tools too.

buying new tools is pretty much reserved for things needed to get the current job out the door. since I have way too many tools already, it doesn't happen much. used tools are a different matter. those I buy opportunistically. yard sales, etc., and only if the price is so cheap I cannot in good conscience walk away.

 

[bugbear]

Can you point me to the thread with praise of marking knives?

You can google it yourself, if you like.

BugBear

 

[Rhossydd]

I have a camera and lens that 8 years ago was the best pro kit available it would have cost near 4 k. I bought it for £300.

Not a very helpful example. Digital cameras were still a very new technology then and major improvements were, and still are, being made, that in turns leads to high prices to develop the new technology with high rates of depreciation as newer, better cameras are released.
The same isn't true for wood working tools as they are a very mature technology. In turn that means that if you buy a good brand now it has very little depreciation.

 

[lurker]

I have a camera and lens that 8 years ago was the best pro kit available it would have cost near 4 k. I bought it for £300.

Not a very helpful example. Digital cameras were still a very new technology then and major improvements were, and still are, being made, that in turns leads to high prices to develop the new technology with high rates of depreciation as newer, better cameras are released.
The same isn't true for wood working tools as they are a very mature technology. In turn that means that if you buy a good brand now it has very little depreciation.

Fair comment but what I was talking about was blokes compulsion to buy kit
WW tools is so mature there is rarely anything new.
Jacob, I think,is just trying to reset a balance between what we really need and GAS, for the benefit of new starters

 

[Jacob]

I have a camera and lens that 8 years ago was the best pro kit available it would have cost near 4 k. I bought it for £300.

Not a very helpful example. Digital cameras were still a very new technology then and major improvements were, and still are, being made, that in turns leads to high prices to develop the new technology with high rates of depreciation as newer, better cameras are released.
The same isn't true for wood working tools as they are a very mature technology. In turn that means that if you buy a good brand now it has very little depreciation.

Fair comment but what I was talking about was blokes compulsion to buy kit
WW tools is so mature there is rarely anything new.
Jacob, I think,is just trying to reset a balance between what we really need and GAS, for the benefit of new starters

Not only that but also to point out what brilliant bits of kit things like wooden marking gauges are. It seems such a pity that people are being so discouraged about stuff which has served generations perfectly well. All the objections to wooden gauges seems to be nonsense (not least all that waffling about bevels) and the metal ones are not as easy to use. It's that simple.
I blame the tool sellers!

 

[iNewbie]

Fair comment but what I was talking about was blokes compulsion to buy kit
WW tools is so mature there is rarely anything new.
Jacob, I think,is just trying to reset a balance between what we really need and GAS, for the benefit of new starters

If you don't have the funds the compulsion to buy is more a wish...


I'm still awaiting from Jacob to be told who exactly these "Guru's" are, who keep telling people to spend on only the finest made tools....

 

[matt_southward]

FWIW - I am essentially a 'new starter' or a 'new woodworker' and so I have firsthand experience of the frustrations a new woodworker encounters, and the temptation this leads into buying new kit.

Someone commented earlier about furniture students needing to 'fettle kit' and so should be prepared to do it - certainly to save money, and yet somebody else said that new furniture students wouldn't worry about dropping £300 on a new plane! Quite the disparity there - and I bridge that gap as I did start a furniture course last September (though I had to stop after a few months because I lost my job - but that's another story). My experience was that 50% of the students didn't give a rat's wotsit for the tools they were using and would use the college's crappy and much abused tools (these were generally the under 25s - though that's not hard and fast); the other 50% who were like me, shall we say more...ahem... mature DID care about the tools they were using and were in the process of sourcing their own 'core kit'.

Now I did try to get old planes and other tools from ebay for fettling (and I like to do it and enjoy it), but the rub is that it all takes time and crucially experience. But you are in the process of gaining experience and don't really know what you are looking for or how to adjust things (College staff do not have the time to help much - however willing). Plus there are deadlines for making stuff at college and for many of us, jobs to go to. So enter the wonderful and expensive world of Shiny New Kit. I did drop £200+ pounds on a Clifton No 5 as after the 3rd ebay failure I simply didn't have the time to mess about any more - though I would have loved to have found a half decent pre-war Stanley. I think the problem is that a lot of new stuff at the cheaper end is utter junk, and to avoid more hassle one ends up looking to pay more, and more and more!

I really do wish I'd come across some of the advice on here earlier - and I personally appreciate Jacob's attempts to debunk some of the mystique of the new stuff - people really are susceptible for newer=better, when in woodwork, there really is nothing new under the sun. Though I don't think it's always that clear cut, and we must make allowance for genuine technical improvements (but wary of techno-bling). The industrial system has always made things with a close eye on cost/benefit analysis - whether old or new, and for us newbies - a way for discerning the difference between need vs want is vital.

 

[morfa]

Now I did try to get old planes and other tools from ebay for fettling (and I like to do it and enjoy it), but the rub is that it all takes time and crucially experience. But you are in the process of gaining experience and don't really know what you are looking for or how to adjust things (College staff do not have the time to help much - however willing). Plus there are deadlines for making stuff at college and for many of us, jobs to go to. So enter the wonderful and expensive world of Shiny New Kit. I did drop £200+ pounds on a Clifton No 5 as after the 3rd ebay failure I simply didn't have the time to mess about any more - though I would have loved to have found a half decent pre-war Stanley. I think the problem is that a lot of new stuff at the cheaper end is utter junk, and to avoid more hassle one ends up looking to pay more, and more and more!l.

Next time you need a plane, give Ray Iles a ring. Apart from my no 4s, I've bought all my planes from him. He re-grinds the soles and generally tidies the plane up before it's sold. No fettling needed, just decent second hand planes at good (often cheaper than ebay) prices. Highly recommended. In case you're wondering, Ray is (I think) Ashley Iles brother.

http://www.oldtools.free-online.co.uk/shop/index.html

 

[matt_southward]

Hi Morfa, thanks for the info on Ray Iles, I didn't know he sold on refurbed bench planes - though he's well known in the green woodworking community. I shall definitely try him next time as still have a few on the list to get!

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Context please!

Is said students attending the likes of Parnham wouldn't worry about the price of tools. Missing out the context changes things entirely. Parnham dealt with very high end fine furniture and was attended by the likes of multi millionaire mark Boddington. Studen site joiners would be a different matter.

Look, the point of the original thread was asking if there is a core of tools in a kit which, being essential, often used and reliability deepened on, should the higher end tools be bought for this need. Not a whole tool kit or unnecessary flamboyance, but a tool so essential that it would be worth buying better initially, in the long run. I have such a kit, I suppose, wher many cheaper tools that weren't the best quality have been replaced with better performing ones. If I had have known back then, should I just have gone straight for the better ones and saved a lot of faffing about.

A person is not very helpful by saying silly things like X is inferior to what we have, when often he just means more expensive . A LN plane is no way inferior to a modern Stanley, Record et al. If someone wants the better performance then that is fine. If not needed then also fine. But inferior or a stupid argument. Jacob does not make fine furniture. I made a living at doing so for a couple of decades. I needed better performance from my tools than bog standard ones. But note that I never say something is inferior to something else. My Record planes did need improving for the work I do. Jacob telling me or anyone that those improvements were unnecessary, or expecting better performance from a tool is unnecessary is silly. I have never failed to improve a tool and get better, more satisfying result.s from using them. If I bought a better performing tool initially, would I be being foolish. I would have saved hours of my precious time. Perhaps buying one or two choice premium tools for my core tool kit would have been sensible.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Those metal gauges are inferior to the wooden ones. In fact they are pointless. Stanley had a go at them but they are rare now, as nobody wanted them much.
That's the LV/LN dilemma - they re-introduce stuff from the back catalogue but ignoring the fact that they are in the back catalogue because nobody wanted them.
I expect there is some specialist user out there who need a special metal gauge for some reason (can't think what) but they too are very rare.
Parnham (et al) was mostly about expensive giftware for very rich people and is best ignored - there was nothing there for the likes of us!.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Is no one allowed to make high end stuff for people who appreciate it? Parnham is used as an example of the level that might be expected by students wishing to make fine stuff. But there are many others and none are cheap to attend and none expect anything but a very high specification of work to be done. We should hope there are some willing to make the finer stuff, there are enough people here who complain that nothing has been done as well as furniture in Georgian times. Well it has and is, if you look for it and stop telling us how unnecessary high levels of accuracy and high levels of finish are, in your opinion.

Mike.