Climate change policy

[Jacob]

Explain exactly how the wealthy are most responsible for Co2 generation as opposed to the poorest?

Why not try to work it out for yourself? It's not difficult and you need the exercise!
Handy hint - you can ask google simple questions and get instant answers e.g. do the rich generate more co2 than the poor?
If in doubt rephrase the question, search further afield, ask a friend.

By the way I don't see the issue as something that is a socialist problem...the way I see it the problem is A-political.

Glad to hear that!
A lot of the solutions look distinctly socialistic, which is why there is so much opposition from the right and especially from business.

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

Why not try to work it out for yourself? It's not difficult and you need the exercise!
Handy hint - you can ask google simple questions and get instant answers e.g. do the rich generate more co2 than the poor?
If in doubt rephrase the question, search further afield, ask a friend.

Glad to hear that!
A lot of the solutions look distinctly socialistic, which is why there is so much opposition from the right and especially from business.

Nice one Jacob

This is one amongst many that I previously found that went some way to informing my own views:

Cambridge University Academic Study


Although I do have to say that, for me, the entire topic of CO2 produced (both directly and indirectly) from either wealthy or not so wealthy was intuitively obvious.

 

[Jacob]

Spain - 1996 a major flooding event in the Pyrenees killed ~70. The death toll is only partly associated with the intensity of the storm - more critical are population densities, topography, quality of existing infrastructure and precisely where the rain fell.

No the deaths were directly due to the storm. Without the storm there would have been no deaths.

The recent Spanish event is extreme but not unprecedented.

I rather thought they were the most severe ever, in particular areas.

In itself it is not proof of climate change,

True

but taken as a pattern of increasing frequency may be.

Exactly. Increasing frequency and intensity, or in other places and times the opposite, leading to drought.

That climate change is happening seems beyond reasonable doubt - there few informed and knowledgeable who would disagree - mainly those with a credibility deficit.

Yep.

There are risks of a "tipping point" but no one can say reliably when that might be.

Nor can you

More likely is a gradual increase in average temperatures,

You don't know that. The science doesn't say it either. Peak temperatures are the critical thing, drought, fires and unsurvivable air temperatures. Not gradual either.

increased rainfall overall, changing weather patterns.

NB decreased rainfall in other places.

It is a real but not immediate threat.

It wasn't an immediate threat in Spain a few weeks ago!

Perceptions of time are key. By 2100 sea level is expected to rise between 0.28 and 1.02m. Most contributors to this forum will be long gone. The connection with "now" may be grandchildren who will then be 80+.

Very optimistic and unrealistic. Tipping point being reached here for example https://www.bas.ac.uk/media-post/grim-outlook-for-antarcticas-thwaites-glacier/

Changes from a human perspective are slow,

Tell that to those who have already experienced it. https://friendsoftheearth.uk/climate-change/extreme-weather-impacts

from a geological perspective utterly rapid.

The UK, together with many prosperous developed economies will largely adapt to modest changes.

No reason to think that. In fact "developed" economies are in some ways the most vulnerable - sudden breakdown in the food chain, power shortages etc.

...

Poorer less advantaged societies will suffer.

Why? Advanced societies are suffering - Spain; floods and fires, also all over the place including California, Australia, even above the arctic circle https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c25l17v7qn0o

Worldwide mass migration will emerge

It is happening already. Have you really not noticed! There's been a big fuss about it!

and conflict over basic resources - water, farmland etc.

Nothing new there, has been going on for a very long time. Will intensify though.

The challenge for developed richer societies will be whether to help and welcome those in need - or put up barriers.

If they are able, but it's too easy to imagine we won't suffer as much as the third world.

Based on current COP progress and the Trump philosophy, which certainly exists throughout Europe, I don't see a happy outcome.

Yep.

 

[Chris152]

At the moment, the effects are increasing very gradually when thinking of the planet as a whole (which isn't to diminish the impact where it's already severe). But research on the possible impact on the Gulf Stream etc is both awesome and awful:

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...nearing-devastating-tipping-point-study-finds

 

[Spectric]

What might also be a bad for our climate and the enviroment that has not been mentioned is that sad old device called a smart phone. It takes people out of the real world and isolates them from their surroundings so they have no interest in nature or wildlife so no interest in the climate emergency. It is now an epidemic, it is like walking amongst the living dead and how can they have any interest in what is happening in the world if they don't even notice what is happening around them.

 

[Noel]

What might also be a bad for our climate and the enviroment that has not been mentioned is that sad old device called a smart phone. It takes people out of the real world and isolates them from their surroundings so they have no interest in nature or wildlife so no interest in the climate emergency. It is now an epidemic, it is like walking amongst the living dead and how can they have any interest in what is happening in the world if they don't even notice what is happening around them.

Roy, you are going to have get yourself pulled and screaming into the 21st century. : ) Phones provide knowledge (nature & wildlife too), communication of all sorts, music, audio visual resources, business tools etc, etc are fantastic. I find mine invaluable. You can even do UKW mod stuff on one too... : )

 

[Lons]

*Reliability and cost of ownership is more important to me than the badge on the front. My last four cars have all been modest size Japanese SUV’s.

*Japanese (and Korean) brands always seem to be in the top ten reliably index whilst German brands like Audi, BMW and Mercedes often languish near to bottom of the list.

Any car you might want to buy has a badge

As I said, you can do anything with stats. My brother has had 3 Japanese cars, all with a lot of problems and I never found one I especially wanted though nearly bought a Mazda RX-8 many years ago. My wife is on her 5th Mini with not a single issue from any while the Nissan Juke she had in 2014 was the biggest heap of rubbish I ever bought and was swapped after 12 months of ****. Strange that sells many thousands and shows as a reasonable reputation.
My last 6 cars have all been German and again have been completely reliable so I'm happy to make my decision based on personal experience along with that of family and friends. Just as you are based on your own experience and preferences.

I've just sold our motorhome so may well look at replacing my car though I'm not really inclined to do so however as I said it would most likely be a similar model but petrol. 5 years time with different choices could easily produce a different outcome.

BTW that list of brands only gives part of the story, you really need to research in far more detail if you're basing your decision on lists. If you google you can find market segments such as executive, family, small, luxury etc where you can find far different results. The BMW 3 series for example still rates highly as do some of the Mercs and Audis. German VWs and Skoda do well also. But I only give those polls a cursory glance and they form only a small part of my decision choice.

 

[ThornOfCamorr]

I know of no one who goes out of their way to fill up their tank, we all drive past petrol stations. What happens when you really need to charge your car in a blackout? Blackouts are coming if Milibrain has his way.

We definitely had petrol shortages over the past years. Can’t recall loosing electricity grid power, though….

Good luck getting petrol in a black out. You would need to find a petrol station with a backup power to operate the pumps. Besides, payment systems will be offline and you will not get any resupplies to petrol stations either.

If you would have a PV array on your roof though, paired with a battery - well, different story

 

[ThornOfCamorr]

To bust some of the myths around EV costs:

It costs me around 300 pounds to drive 5000 miles. There is no annual maintenance, air filter swap every two years (15 pounds diy job), break fluid every four and changing breaks/tyres when required.

Car was not more expensive than a ICE equivalent in the same class/size.

I admit, if you do not have possibility to charge at home, then it will be more expensive and way less convenient. That’s where councils and politics are required to step in and ensure adequate infrastructure. To me that’s a teething issue which will be resolved.

Also keep in mind that EVs are still in their infancy and there will be massive progress over the coming years. Question is just if the UK will play any role in this technology market…

 

[Spectric]

Phones provide knowledge

If that was the case then why are there not more clever people around !

Everyone is just staring at phone screens, you have to feel sorry for young kids who are just ignored because mum is busy on her phone, couples not talking because they are both on there phones and it is a social disease eating away at peoples face to face interactions and ability to socialise.

 

[Croolis]

It costs me around 300 pounds to drive 5000 miles.

Is that just lecky cost?

 

[ey_tony]

Bearing in mind I'm not a climate denier or remotely against net zero, only the timing I would suggest that those who are militant and often engaged in green matters take a look at the following list and then answer the questions below.

China, USA, India, Russia, Japan, Indonesia, Iran and Germany. They're the top eight of the world's contributors of Co2.

Question 1. Which of those nations listed above are actually on course to meet the 2050 net zero target?

Question 2. Which of those listed above do you firmly believe will actually achieve net zero by 2050 or earlier?

Question 3. Which of the nations listed above do you believe will be willing to hamstring their economies which will no doubt seriously impact on their citizen's lifestyles in order to meet net zero targets?

Question 4. If the UK achieves net zero but the other nations don't, do you believe that it will not affect the UK's economy and not put us behind those nations which didn't achieve net zero and more to the point what should we do if they don't?

It will be interesting to see what the response is on this matter.

 

[Jacob]

Bearing in mind I'm not a climate denier or remotely against net zero, only the timing I would suggest that those who are militant and often engaged in green matters take a look at the following list and then answer the questions below.

China, USA, India, Russia, Japan, Indonesia, Iran and Germany. They're the top eight of the world's contributors of Co2.

Question 1. Which of those nations listed above are actually on course to meet the 2050 net zero target?

Question 2. Which of those listed above do you firmly believe will actually achieve net zero by 2050 or earlier?

Question 3. Which of the nations listed above do you believe will be willing to hamstring their economies which will no doubt seriously impact on their citizen's lifestyles in order to meet net zero targets?

Question 4. If the UK achieves net zero but the other nations don't, do you believe that it will not affect the UK's economy and not put us behind those nations which didn't achieve net zero and more to the point what should we do if they don't?

It will be interesting to see what the response is on this matter.

We should be doing everything necessary now, and as fast as possible.
We could set an example for others to follow and lead in the technology instead of buying Chinese, as the whole world will have to, as the Chinese sensibly took the initiative.
As pointed out by @selectortone - we import stuff with high CO2 footprint from non compliant states, we should look at BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) and reject them.
There is no alternative. It's urgent. We have to do now, very quickly, what we have failed to do in the last 75 years.

 

[ey_tony]

We should be doing everything necessary now, and as fast as possible.
We could set an example for others to follow and we also could lead in the technology instead of buying Chinese, as the whole world will have to, as the Chinese took the initiative.
As pointed out above - we import stuff with high CO2 footprint from non compliant states, we should look at BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) and reject them.
There is no alternative.

We all know what we should be doing but you've not answered one single question, why is that?

 

[AJB Temple]

We all know what we should be doing but you've not answered one single question, why is that?

Have you only just noticed: Jacob rarely answers questions. His style is to deflect attention by responding to questions with a couple of questions of his own, and peppering everything with links. It's narc behaviour.

 

[Jacob]

We all know what we should be doing but you've not answered one single question, why is that?

Another little dilemma for you to struggle with.

 

[RobinBHM]

What might also be a bad for our climate and the enviroment that has not been mentioned is that sad old device called a smart phone. It takes people out of the real world and isolates them from their surroundings so they have no interest in nature or wildlife so no interest in the climate emergency. It is now an epidemic, it is like walking amongst the living dead and how can they have any interest in what is happening in the world if they don't even notice what is happening around them.

Have you tried the Merlin bird app?

 

[Blackswanwood]

Bearing in mind I'm not a climate denier or remotely against net zero, only the timing I would suggest that those who are militant and often engaged in green matters take a look at the following list and then answer the questions below.

China, USA, India, Russia, Japan, Indonesia, Iran and Germany. They're the top eight of the world's contributors of Co2.

Question 1. Which of those nations listed above are actually on course to meet the 2050 net zero target?

Question 2. Which of those listed above do you firmly believe will actually achieve net zero by 2050 or earlier?

Question 3. Which of the nations listed above do you believe will be willing to hamstring their economies which will no doubt seriously impact on their citizen's lifestyles in order to meet net zero targets?

Question 4. If the UK achieves net zero but the other nations don't, do you believe that it will not affect the UK's economy and not put us behind those nations which didn't achieve net zero and more to the point what should we do if they don't?

It will be interesting to see what the response is on this matter.

Not sure who this is directed at Tony. Do you think there are militants on here? What constitutes being engaged in green matters?

I think it makes sense for the UK to be at the forefront of moving to net zero. Being a leader in developing the technologies required gives long term competitive advantage.

We can argue in circles about the speed with which change is driven. Bits of policy perhaps could be refined but we need to be ambitious to make it happen. There’s a lot of misinformation around and people failing to recognise we are transitioning rather than doing it overnight. The economy is not being hobbled and there is no need for anyone to suffer as we go through it.

The arguments about what others are doing are a bit daft. All countries start in different places and have different circumstances. By being at the forefront we can sell them our developed technologies and skills.

To be clear - I’m not a militant but I’ll brace myself for one of your tirades of criticism anyway!

 

[Jacob]

.... The economy is not being hobbled and there is no need for anyone to suffer as we go through it.
......

A bit optimistic! We need to be on something like a war footing, facing a much bigger threat than any war in history.

 

[woodieallen]

The price of new EVs is now close to ICE - as volumes increase prices are likely to fall further. A s/h market will develop - in 12-20 years time your neighbours may be able to afford them - as they do older ICE!!

Really ? Not the last time I looked.

The rest is nonsense. Just about every house has an electric supply to recharge an EV - beats driving miles to top up an empty ICE fuel tank in a garage miles away.

Such a shame they have nowhere to park the cars near the charging point. And no it does not beat driving miles to top up...that is just stupid...I had you down for better than that. You put petrol in during a journey.

Comments above on price and cost of cars. Poor pensioners don't have cars now.

Yes we do. An old banger, but it runs.