Climate change policy

[Hypnotic Chimera]

It makes no difference whatever metric one uses to determine who is guilty of what with regard Co2 emissions. It's the amount that is emitted by individual countries and not per capita or soundbite which is the benchmark.

All of these measures aimed at achieving net zero in the UK are going to affect the poorest in our society most.
Very few for instance low paid would be able to afford to buy electric vehicles to replace their aging ICE powered vehicle and those living rural areas such as where I live.
They desperately rely upon their vehicles for transport due to there being disgustingly inadequate public transport and are going to have their lives turned upside down and we'll likely see migration from the rural areas to suburbs as a consequence which will put even more pressure on available housing.

The same applies to the retired. Most pensioners I know simply couldn't afford to buy an electric vehicle but rely heavily upon their vehicle to get around so once again it's those who are generally the poorest who will be affected most.
The same applies to the proposed increases in taxes in the form of road fund duty...the poorest are always those most affected so sorry but it doesn't take scientific rigour to see how it's going to affect certain groups.

You might be onto something here, tony, ma boy... might be a good reason to, I dunno, erm, maybe place a slightly higher taxation on the wealthiest?

 

[Fitzroy]

It makes no difference whatever metric one uses to determine who is guilty of what with regard Co2 emissions. It's the amount that is emitted by individual countries and not per capita or soundbite which is the benchmark.

You say the metric is unimportant and then use the metric of total co2 emissions per country as the benchmark! That aside, why is it the total CO2 per country that you think should be the metric, I am honestly interested in your rationale?

Personally I think co2 per capita is a helpful metric. My rationale is that it allows smaller counties to understand the impact they have. However in a country like India I’m not sure a per capita metric is totally useful, the country has a huge rich poor divide and individuals in that country will have a wide range of emissions per capita. Treating the country as a homogeneous whole may result in inaction by the wealthy elite who per capita are likely on a similar level to those in other highly developed affluent economies.

 

[Croolis]

Personally I think co2 per capita is a helpful metric. My rationale is that it allows smaller counties to understand the impact they have. However in a country like India I’m not sure a per capita metric is totally useful, the country has a huge rich poor divide and individuals in that country will have a wide range of emissions per capita. Treating the country as a homogeneous whole may result in inaction by the wealthy elite who per capita are likely on a similar level to those in other highly developed affluent economies.

Yes, this. Like any measurement, context still plays a part. I did an absolutely amazing post in the other thread, successfully rubbishing anyone who disagrees with me, that demonstrates perfectly why I'm right about this.

 

[ey_tony]

You might be onto something here, tony, ma boy... might be a good reason to, I dunno, erm, maybe place a slightly higher taxation on the wealthiest?

Unfortunately anyone who thinks giving extra money to the government in the form of taxes and then expecting them to reduce atmospheric pollution is living with cuckoos.
The impact of this planned nonsense net zero target in the UK is going to have most impact on the poorest and retired, that is a given and further taxing those who already pay the lion's share of taxation is not going to be enough to offset the impact that net-zero targets will have on those who can ill afford the eccentricities of those who can.

From what I can gather gas boilers will be banned from being installed in new homes in 2025, who is going to fund this? I priced up a heat pump recently to compare the price of replacing my gas boiler and it wasn't economically viable from my perspective so the money will have to come from somewhere.

It's all well and good for politicians to make these ridiculous virtue signalling promises by pulling dates out of thin air and then it's the ordinary person who has to pay the price.

I'm not against net-zero in theory it's just that if it's rushed which it clearly is, then it's going to have a huge impact on people's lives and I can see them rejecting it if it is brought in too quickly as the infrastructure to take advantage of cheaper energy is just not in place and won't be for a considerable time.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

It makes no difference whatever metric one uses to determine who is guilty of what with regard Co2 emissions. It's the amount that is emitted by individual countries and not per capita or soundbite which is the benchmark.

Of course it matters - penalising the citizens of India with per capita emissions of 2 tons in the same way as the US emitting 14 tons is so obviously inequitable the chances of agreement and compliance is close to zero.

All of these measures aimed at achieving net zero in the UK are going to affect the poorest in our society most.
Very few for instance low paid would be able to afford to buy electric vehicles to replace their aging ICE powered vehicle and those living rural areas such as where I live.

Most do not buy new cars - there are ~30m cars on the road and ~2m new cars sold each year.

The price of new EVs is now close to ICE - as volumes increase prices are likely to fall further. A s/h market will develop - in 12-20 years time your neighbours may be able to afford them - as they do older ICE!!

They desperately rely upon their vehicles for transport due to there being disgustingly inadequate public transport and are going to have their lives turned upside down and we'll likely see migration from the rural areas to suburbs as a consequence which will put even more pressure on available housing.

I agree public transport is dire.

The rest is nonsense. Just about every house has an electric supply to recharge an EV - beats driving miles to top up an empty ICE fuel tank in a garage miles away.

The same applies to the retired. Most pensioners I know simply couldn't afford to buy an electric vehicle but rely heavily upon their vehicle to get around so once again it's those who are generally the poorest who will be affected most.

Comments above on price and cost of cars. Poor pensioners don't have cars now.

The same applies to the proposed increases in taxes in the form of road fund duty...the poorest are always those most affected so sorry but it doesn't take scientific rigour to see how it's going to affect certain groups.

Your concern for the poorest is of course worthy. But EV transition is not going to make a material difference to well being as it has limited impact on the cost of motoring:

• currently running costs of EV are less than for ICE making them more accessible. Over time I expect them to increase to replace tax and duty revenues lost
• public transport is rubbish - two possible solutions - subsidise it to make it better, or reduce the cost of motoring. The latter would only be a partial solution - many pensioners are no longer able to drive due to infirmity.
• ICE cars will be available new for up to a decade. They will be in common usage for the next 2+ decades. Not exactly an immediate problem anyway.

 

[TRITON]

I know about timber, furniture design and in my previous trade, meat, butchery and meat inspection.
I am quite knowledgeable about those subjects

I am not a meteorologist, i know nowt about climate change, geology and the study of the history of the planet. I leave that to the large number of phd's in this subject.

I do find it incredible though that a large number of people, whom have as little knowledge of those subjects as myself, think they know anything in comparison to the multitude of scientists who have been at the top of their field for decades, and work with centuries of recorded data and the most modern way of measurement. Or can in any way make an informed judgement on this topic.

 

[Chris Puttick]

Keir Starmer on his climate change the man lives in a bubble. When Russia India China and uncle Sam stop pouring smoke into the sky, not to mention all the wood fires in the world Alaska, all the ski resorts, Air planes, Trains, heavy lorries. Our electric car target of 81% is a drop in the ocean Mean while we all have to suffer.

China is way ahead of the game of transitioning to cleaner sources of energy. 3 of the top 10 EV manufacturers are Chinese, and the batteries etc. in many of the others are Chinese. Despite being the factory for much of the stuff being sold in Europe/US, they are way below US (Russia, Taiwan, South Korea, Australia) in per capita outputs of CO2, and as for India it's way down the table, with a per capita output half the UK's. Where the UK has made a major fail, not just because of the populist short termist nature of the last decade or so of government, is not managing to produce much of the green tech we're both already consuming and need more of.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Just about every house has an electric supply to recharge an EV - beats driving miles to top up an empty ICE fuel tank in a garage miles away.

I know of no one who goes out of their way to fill up their tank, we all drive past petrol stations. What happens when you really need to charge your car in a blackout? Blackouts are coming if Milibrain has his way.

 

[ey_tony]

Of course it matters - penalising the citizens of India with per capita emissions of 2 tons in the same way as the US emitting 14 tons is so obviously inequitable the chances of agreement and compliance is close to zero.

Most do not buy new cars - there are ~30m cars on the road and ~2m new cars sold each year.

The price of new EVs is now close to ICE - as volumes increase prices are likely to fall further. A s/h market will develop - in 12-20 years time your neighbours may be able to afford them - as they do older ICE!!

I agree public transport is dire.

The rest is nonsense. Just about every house has an electric supply to recharge an EV - beats driving miles to top up an empty ICE fuel tank in a garage miles away.

Comments above on price and cost of cars. Poor pensioners don't have cars now.

Your concern for the poorest is of course worthy. But EV transition is not going to make a material difference to well being as it has limited impact on the cost of motoring:

• currently running costs of EV are less than for ICE making them more accessible. Over time I expect them to increase to replace tax and duty revenues lost
• public transport is rubbish - two possible solutions - subsidise it to make it better, or reduce the cost of motoring. The latter would only be a partial solution - many pensioners are no longer able to drive due to infirmity.
• ICE cars will be available new for up to a decade. They will be in common usage for the next 2+ decades. Not exactly an immediate problem anyway.

As I've argued it doesn't matter which metric you use, in the case of India the reality is that the nation produces nearly 8 times more Co2 than the UK.

It's the total output at the end of the day which is the critical factor not semantics therefore India in essence either produces more or less Co2 than the UK and as we know from data, India as a nation produces 8 times more Co2 than the UK.

The per capita argument has no bearing on the final output. Higher or lower the final result as a percentage of world contribution wouldn't change.
If we are going to address the global warming issue then it must be based on national output and reduced accordingly, otherwise we will never reach agreement with other nations on anything.

 

[user 36867]

I thought perhaps you had started a thread on climate change because you wanted to engage in meaningful debate

I was wrong

Yes you were

 

[user 36867]

I am so sorry I didn’t mean to start all this I was just stating my opinion, what we were doing and every one else was not doing to help because of greed. But after reading these posts it’s understand able why we have wars and arguments from passionate people. Which makes me wonder if we are not a massive fish bowl with a higher intelligence laughing and cheering as they watch our stupidity?

 

[selectortone]

The meaningful metric on CO2 is consumption. It may be China, India and the USA who are producing it, but it's we in the West who consume most of the goods manufactured with its release.

 

[RobinBHM]

Yes you were

Yes, you didn't want a debate based on facts, you just wanted to make silly sarcastic comments.

 

[Lons]

The price of new EVs is now close to ICE - as volumes increase prices are likely to fall further. A s/h market will develop - in 12-20 years time your neighbours may be able to afford them - as they do older ICE!!

Well you can do anything with stats. From what I've read the average new price of an EV is still around £45k so a majority will be subject to the new budget luxury tax while ICE comes in around £10k less. Average new EV prices would be even higher if it wasn't for current subsidies and discounting as they aren't selling as well as predicted.
Yes s/h supplies are and will continue to increase but concerns about battery life aren't going away any time soon and it's unlikely EVs will ever last as long as ICE as costs of new batteries outweigh the value of the car. Hopefully future developments will change that but it's just speculation at the minute.

The rest is nonsense. Just about every house has an electric supply to recharge an EV - beats driving miles to top up an empty ICE fuel tank in a garage miles away.

Not as simple as that, having electricity and being able to use it for an EV isn't always possible
There are a multitude of streets of terraced houses with no off street parking and many can't even park near their own house let alone outside it. My son is one, lovely old Victorian terrace house but often has to park in the next street. My daughter in law, a nurse has a leased EV and has to charge in the town car park if she can't get in at work. She often has to travel on call at odd hours so car has to be kept charged and it's doubtful if her next car will be an EV.

Poor pensioners don't have cars now.

Rubbish. Pensioners who live in rural areas with poor public transport have little choice and the area I live is a prime example.
Just out of interest there are 7 million over 65s who hold a driving licence, that's 20% of full UK licence holders apparently, out of which 4m are over 70 and more than1m over 80. Apparently 32% of over 65s own a car which represents the largest ownership age group.

many pensioners are no longer able to drive due to infirmity.

Many is not a quantifiable number

ICE cars will be available new for up to a decade. They will be in common usage for the next 2+ decades. Not exactly an immediate problem anyway.

Agreed. I'm not anti EV surprisingly and I'd buy one if the numbers stacked up which they don't for me at the minute. If I was changing my car tomorrow it would be the petrol version of what I currently drive but I have no doubt that I will at some stage have an EV or perhaps an alternative if they develop one.

 

[Vulcan]

Well you can do anything with stats. From what I've read the average new price of an EV is still around £45k.

Averages don’t mean a lot in this context unless that’s a *personal purchase metric?

There are currently over 40 BEV’s under £40K at the moment and many more on the way.

https://myurbancar.com/2023/08/04/buyers-guide-electric-cars-under-40000-rrp/

*I’m guessing you’re personally only interested in expensive cars given that I believe you say you drive a big Mercedes Diesel?

 

[Fitzroy]

As I've argued it doesn't matter which metric you use, in the case of India the reality is that the nation produces nearly 8 times more Co2 than the UK.

It's the total output at the end of the day which is the critical factor not semantics therefore India in essence either produces more or less Co2 than the UK and as we know from data, India as a nation produces 8 times more Co2 than the UK.

The per capita argument has no bearing on the final output. Higher or lower the final result as a percentage of world contribution wouldn't change.
If we are going to address the global warming issue then it must be based on national output and reduced accordingly, otherwise we will never reach agreement with other nations on anything.

But you haven't argued you've just stated your opinion!

Saying "it doesn't matter which metric you use" and then saying "It's the total output at the end of the day which is the critical" means you think it does matter which metric is used, and you think it should be total output per country. Why do you think total per country is the correct metric?

 

[Lons]

Averages don’t mean a lot in this context unless that’s a *personal purchase metric?

There are currently over 40 BEV’s under £40K at the moment and many more on the way.

https://myurbancar.com/2023/08/04/buyers-guide-electric-cars-under-40000-rrp/

*I’m guessing you’re personally only interested in expensive cars given that I believe you say you drive a big Mercedes Diesel?

As I said you can do anything with stats but of course every decision any of us make is influenced to a large degree by our own circumstances. We're human and the species is in general selfish.

I did state the numbers don't stack up for me so it was personal and yes I do drive a Merc but it isn't a "big Mercedes Diesel". It's a GLC which is by modern standards an average size family SUV - look it up.

Average is a regularly used comparison tool as by definition it's a useful measure. The fact for me personally as I stated elsewhere is that the far eastern EVs I've looked closely at and have driven, (and that includes the MGs) are in my personal opinion very poor They account for most of the sub £40k offerings. BTW some of the cars you list are only just sub £40k in standard format so as soon as you add options like metalic paint, etc you're unto the over £40k bracket. The devil is in the detail.

You want to drive what I consider to be a cr*p car then that's your choice and nothing to do with me. I'm assuming you do so apologies if that's wrong.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

If we are going to address the global warming issue then it must be based on national output and reduced accordingly, otherwise we will never reach agreement with other nations on anything.

If the basis chosen for setting targets is clearly seen as inequitable by some, particularly the larger total emitters (eg India), the chances of a coherent plan being implemented are close to zero.

What you get is a lot of hot air and no action - colloquially better expressed as "7arting against thunder" - pointless.

 

[Vulcan]

As I said you can do anything with stats but of course every decision any of us make is influenced to a large degree by our own circumstances. We're human and the species is in general selfish.

I did state the numbers don't stack up for me so it was personal and yes I do drive a Merc but it isn't a "big Mercedes Diesel". It's a GLC which is by modern standards an average size family SUV - look it up.

Average is a regularly used comparison tool as by definition it's a useful measure. The fact for me personally as I stated elsewhere is that the far eastern EVs I've looked closely at and have driven, (and that includes the MGs) are in my personal opinion very poor They account for most of the sub £40k offerings. BTW some of the cars you list are only just sub £40k in standard format so as soon as you add options like metalic paint, etc you're unto the over £40k bracket. The devil is in the detail.

You want to drive what I consider to be a cr*p car then that's your choice and nothing to do with me. I'm assuming you do so apologies if that's wrong.

*Reliability and cost of ownership is more important to me than the badge on the front. My last four cars have all been modest size Japanese SUV’s.

*Japanese (and Korean) brands always seem to be in the top ten reliably index whilst German brands like Audi, BMW and Mercedes often languish near to bottom of the list.

 

[Spectric]

From what I can gather gas boilers will be banned from being installed in new homes in 2025, who is going to fund this? I priced up a heat pump recently to compare the price of replacing my gas boiler and it wasn't economically viable from my perspective so the money will have to come from somewhere.

That is a complete disaster in the making, if you cannot have a gas boiler then the best option is either an extremely well insulated property with thick walls which means far fewer builds on a given plot and much more expensive or some form of solid fuel burner be it a woodburner or some form of pellet burner.

When it comes to the Co2 emisions then it is the total global output that needs to be reduced and yes China is showing the way but also that you cannot just ditch fossil fuels so Starmer is just being a plonker by making these daft promises on a semi global stage without having a clue as to how to do it and also not worrying about the consequences to the population. Also don't forget that there are still a vast number of countries where the people are going through more industrialisation and will become more polluting.