Chisels & chiselling - questions, questions

[Jacob]

Hello Gents,

The time has come to get some decent chisels & I am almost sure to go for Sorby's (because they are English & I've read good things about them although I've not got my hands on 1 & that they are not as good today as the olduns- the American ones I handled at Axi seem very light & almost too delicate, although I've read glowing reports of them too). I need flat edged ones as I'm not ready for expensive turning ones just yet..but I'm stumped with the choice of blade & handle & would like your opinions please. So far the most I chop up to 25 w x 65 d mortices in oak as well the smaller joints. What would you recommend?

Interesting bit of tooly-speak. I've never met an indecent chisel. If it's woodwork you are interested in then the chisel details are not very important - apart from size there's very little meaningful difference between them in reality. Except price of course.
Just get some cheapo chisels and do some woodwork!

....r can you only get surgical sharpness with a natural stone?

Dunno. Who cares (except surgeons).
You only require "woodworking sharpness" for which a double sided oil stone is perfectly adequate - and no; it doesn't need "flattening" every few minutes. Never, in fact. I once flattened one by mistake but it was a PITA and really difficult to get a properly cambered blade. Nicely hollowed now and much more useful.

 

[Togalosh]

Tog - my diamond "stone" is actually a flat bar of steel with a diamond coating. It is the Extra Extra Coarse variety that is only used to do really heavy stuff like take a pitted face back to flat. You can grind back dinks and chips on the bevel with a wheel but this stone is the business for flat sides.
It cuts coarse (of course) and so leaves a rough finish.

My usual stone for general sharpening is an oil stone - this will not stay dead flat, no matter how good you get at keeping it even as you go, so the best way I have found to work is to use one side for bevels and the other for faces. The faces side will stay flatter but you will inevitably 'dish' it slightly if you use it to heavily flaten. This Is only really noticeable when re-ground on the diamond stone .... which IS dead flat. See above - flattening an old iron that has previously been sharpened on an oil stone; the middle gets ground first meaning the sides have been worn more by a slightly hollow stone.
It's live - with - able though, all that the face gets is usually the taking off of the burr. If you only ever subject a stone to this, it is likely to stay more than flat enough.

Are your ceramic stones oil or water? - Water stones are flattenable, oil stones are not.

Ha ha.. why did I ever think you'd just have one of those plastic framed diamond stones from Machine Mart ??!

My ceramics can be oiled, wetted or dry.. I used them dry. http://www.axminster.co.uk/spyderco-spy ... prod20440/ ...I had more money than sense that day I bought 'em... that's not hard mind. I was duped by the false promise of a maintenance free stone.

..I now realise there are no short cuts to a proper job (excuse the pun). I saw a David Savage DVD with them using a Japenese wet stone which I might look for.

 

[Togalosh]

Jacob - you take me too literally on the surgical sharpness comment.. sharpening a blade "so that no light can fall on the edge" is surgically sharp to me but probably a very long way off from being so.

Are you saying that you believe there's little or no difference in the quality between the cheapo chisels & the more expensive ones?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Tog - I use ceramic stones too. I use mine with a lubricant - water with a spot of washing-up liquid to break the surface tension. Don't use them dry, despite the manufacturer's claims - they'll just clog, because there's nothing to float away the abraded metal. Mine are of somewhat indifferent flatness - one side is just about acceptable, the other is unacceptably less than flat. I like 'em - they cut fast, leave a good edge, and being relatively thin compared to many sharpening stones, are easy to use on the bench, and to store when not in use. I think when I've got a few more pennies, I'll invest in one of Richard's flat diamond plates, and lap both sides of them a bit flatter.

All in all, it's not a chaep way of sharpening, though.

 

[Jacob]

...
Are you saying that you believe there's little or no difference in the quality between the cheapo chisels & the more expensive ones?

Yes. It's largely down to appearance. As tools go the are very simple. Gouges get more complicated. I've got some very cheapo chisels and they work just as well as my posher ones. Sometimes they blunt quicker but then are easier to sharpen.

 

[DTR]

If nothing else, I've found that cheap "bevel edged" chisels are rarely bevel edged, only chamfered. It makes them rather awkward for getting in between dovetails.

 

[DTR]

While we're on the subject, what medium is fastest for removing pitting from the flat face of a chisel? I see Richard T uses an extra extra coarse diamond stone, but as I recall was using emery cloth before that?....

 

[Togalosh]

...
Are you saying that you believe there's little or no difference in the quality between the cheapo chisels & the more expensive ones?

Yes. It's largely down to appearance. As tools go the are very simple. Gouges get more complicated. I've got some very cheapo chisels and they work just as well as my posher ones. Sometimes they blunt quicker but then are easier to sharpen.

You've got both then..howcome? Cheapo ones for rougher work where you might nick them (more carpentry work perhaps) & posh ones for what - more delicate work ?? Could you do without your posh ones or vise versa?

Like I've said prevoiusly - I've found a new reverence for what I'm doing & the job at hand when using my new posh bull nose plane, whether it be because it was expensive or just that it's so nice to use I'm not sure...do tools impart an attitude..do you abuse cheap tools & do a worse job just because they are cheap tools..

..oh hell I'm getting deep.

 

[Togalosh]

If nothing else, I've found that cheap "bevel edged" chisels are rarely bevel edged, only chamfered. It makes them rather awkward for getting in between dovetails.

This was brought up before.. can you expand on what the difference in use is please DTR..

I (think I) get that one blade is made bevel edged & one is cut to have a beveled edge..but how does it matter?.. & how can you tell which is which?

 

[No skills]

...do tools impart an attitude..do you abuse cheap tools & do a worse job just because they are cheap tools..

..oh hell I'm getting deep.

Not always the case with me, dont know if others will agree or not. I have some very cheap chisels at work which lead different lives - some are shitters that get pounded/levered/stirred in paint/scrapped with etc etc (and other jobs that would make chisel lovers run screaming from the room), the others in comparison are pampered - well prepared and sharpened and only used for wood working tasks. They are all very cheap, at home is a slightly different story though.

Cheap Bevel edge chisels are only chamfered at the top edge, traditional bevel edged chisels would have the sides tapered right down to the flat face (well nearly, give a couple of mm down the sides).

 

[Richard T]

While we're on the subject, what medium is fastest for removing pitting from the flat face of a chisel? I see Richard T uses an extra extra coarse diamond stone, but as I recall was using emery cloth before that?....

Yes Dave, emery cloth stuck down with double sided tape. It is probably as fast when there is not all that much to do but it wears the cloth out fast and you need to change it, then change the tape ... it gets tedious as well as sticky after a while. I love my DMT.

 

[DTR]

Thanks Richard, I might give that a go. My good lady treated me to a selection of vintage chisels in need of some TLC. And some handles.

 

[DTR]

If nothing else, I've found that cheap "bevel edged" chisels are rarely bevel edged, only chamfered. It makes them rather awkward for getting in between dovetails.

This was brought up before.. can you expand on what the difference in use is please DTR..

I (think I) get that one blade is made bevel edged & one is cut to have a beveled edge..but how does it matter?.. & how can you tell which is which?

Hopefully this bodge of a diagram below will show what I mean (it's a bit late to go wandering off to the shed to take a photo)

Both chisels and dovetail pin sockets are the same width. The good quality chisel has a well bevelled cross section that allows it to go right into the corner of the socket. The cheap chisel is held off by its straight sides. Hope that helps.

 

[Jacob]

If nothing else, I've found that cheap "bevel edged" chisels are rarely bevel edged, only chamfered. It makes them rather awkward for getting in between dovetails.

This was brought up before.. can you expand on what the difference in use is please DTR..

I (think I) get that one blade is made bevel edged & one is cut to have a beveled edge..but how does it matter?.. & how can you tell which is which?

Hopefully this bodge of a diagram below will show what I mean (it's a bit late to go wandering off to the shed to take a photo)

Both chisels and dovetail pin sockets are the same width. The good quality chisel has a well bevelled cross section that allows it to go right into the corner of the socket. The cheap chisel is held off by its straight sides. Hope that helps.

Some pricey chisels don't have a fine bevel. True - few cheap ones do, but it's no prob to grind them up a bit and then you have a good quality chisel. You only need one or two for your DTs, not a whole set with bubonglia handles and brass knobs on!
It's nice to have nice tools of course but it might not make much difference to your woodwork.

Also the picture above is misleading in that you can perfectly well clean out a DT with an un bevelled chisel if it is narrow enough and presented on the skew and anyway the bevel (if needed) needs only to be as fine as the angle of the DT - usually well above 45º. The "quality" otherwise hardly matters at all.

Buy posh kit by all means - but if you can't afford to you aren't missing much - don't let it put you off.

 

[DTR]

Some pricey chisels don't have a fine bevel. True - few cheap ones do, but it's no prob to grind them up a bit and then you have a good quality chisel. You only need one or two for your DTs, not a whole set with bubonglia handles and brass knobs on!
It's nice to have nice tools of course but it might not make much difference to your woodwork.

Also the picture above is misleading in that you can perfectly well clean out a DT with an un bevelled chisel if it is narrow enough and presented on the skew and anyway the bevel (if needed) needs only to be as fine as the angle of the DT - usually well above 45º. The "quality" otherwise hardly matters at all.

Buy posh kit by all means - but if you can't afford to you aren't missing much - don't let it put you off.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that I'm recommending either new or posh chisels - see a few posts above re vintage chisels.

I agree that only one or two bevel-edged chisels are needed for dovetails, not a whole set. I also agree that a straight-edged chisel can be used on the skew... but I'd rather have the bevel-edged.