Cheap workbench :-)

[TobyT]

Anyone looking for an old bench to do up and use? Cheap at 1/20th the price
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/467391132976054/

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Beautifully crafted???

 

[Jacob]

Anyone looking for an old bench to do up and use? Cheap at 1/20th the price
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/467391132976054/

Excellent and interesting design. Worth copying or careful restoration/rebuild. I would have splayed the cabinet lengthways too, for more stability.

 

[rob1693]

It's certainly seen a life

 

[Sideways]

Who buys overpriced lots like that !
Rhetorical question, please don't answer it.

 

[Jester129]

Nobody with any sense is the short answer!

 

[dephill]

I don’t think their target market includes woodworkers.

 

[Eshmiel]

Excellent and interesting design. Worth copying or careful restoration/rebuild. I would have splayed the cabinet lengthways too, for more stability.

I'd be interested in hearing the reasons, explanations, details and so forth supporting your opinion that this bench exhibits an "excellent and interesting design" that's "worth copying....". Alternatively, are there reasons why this design hasn't survived into the current age; or been copied by one of the avid old-bench copiers who have arisen in the last couple of decades, publishing the designs and building process in magazines and books?

How does the splaying provide more stability than that available from a bench with four vertical legs, one at each corner?

 

[Jacob]

I'd be interested in hearing the reasons, explanations, details and so forth supporting your opinion that this bench exhibits an "excellent and interesting design" that's "worth copying....". Alternatively, are there reasons why this design hasn't survived into the current age; or been copied by one of the avid old-bench copiers who have arisen in the last couple of decades, publishing the designs and building process in magazines and books?

Look twice and it looks fairly conventional to me. A normal top with a heavy front beam, well, a drawer, vice , planing stop, other holes for stops, holdowns etc.
Useful cupboard underneath leaves plenty of room all round it and at the ends, partly thanks to the unusual splayed shape.
Nice decorative scroll under the drawer.
Whats not to like, other than the price and the decrepitude?

How does the splaying provide more stability than that available from a bench with four vertical legs, one at each corner?

Basic structural design. The splay resists racking and movement. Hence millions of chairs, saw horses, pig benches etc etc all with splayed legs. Did you not know that?

The standard bench as found everywhere (except in the modern bench design books for some reason) is braced by legs attached to the wide aprons and M&T joints to the frames, although this pic shows an optional diagonal brace (dotted lines).
A bench without aprons needs more bracing, and splaying the legs is one way to go.

 

[Eshmiel]

Look twice and it looks fairly conventional to me. A normal top with a heavy front beam, well, a drawer, vice , planing stop, other holes for stops, holdowns etc.

I've never seen a bench that has such a small underpinning with sloped sides. It seems far from conventional, especially the projection of a very narrow bench top beyond the support of a very small undercarriage. It's also too narrow for all sorts of WW tasks; and the tool well is, these days, regarded as a place for collecting sawdust and dunshing tool edges together rather than as anything useful.

Useful cupboard underneath leaves plenty of room all round it and at the ends, partly thanks to the unusual splayed shape.

That cupboard looks not-useful, really. The splay will surely restrict the room inside, make it difficult to fit things in that have a top as wide or wider than the floor of the cupboard and is inherently rather small for the bench. A bench edge projection at the front, of a much wider front-to-back top, would have been better for using as a clamp point.

Nice decorative scroll under the drawer.

How does a decorative scroll improve a bench made for working in a demanding and damaging environment rather than for decorating the living room?

Whats not to like, other than the price and the decrepitude?

The poor design, on many fronts?

Basic structural design. The splay resists racking and movement. Hence millions of chairs, saw horses, pig benches etc etc all with splayed legs. Did you not know that?

Surely the splay of chairs, saw horses et al is to place the feet of the legs beyond the periphery of what's resting on them? That bench looks more like a see-saw, liable to tip if something substantial rests on one end.

 

[Jacob]

I've never seen a bench that has such a small underpinning with sloped sides. It seems far from conventional, especially the projection of a very narrow bench top beyond the support of a very small undercarriage. It's also too narrow for all sorts of WW tasks; and the tool well is, these days, regarded as a place for collecting sawdust and dunshing tool edges together rather than as anything useful.

Regarded by whom? More fool them - a tool well is really useful!
The width of the bench is effectively increased by the apron at the back , dead level with the front of the bench. You rest the workpiece over the well, if it's that big, but 99% of bench work is on narrow components for whatever you are making, usually working close to the front and/or in the vice.
Narrow benches were quite normal and practical, narrowest of all being the Japanese planing beam. People tend to confuse them with tables - hence the various modern offerings. Though work tables are useful of course.

Surely the splay of chairs, saw horses et al is to place the feet of the legs beyond the periphery of what's resting on them? That bench looks more like a see-saw, liable to tip if something substantial rests on one end.

If they do extend that far then it will be more stable as you say. But even if they don't the splay adds stability by triangulating the structure. Given a deep enough mortice they also become tighter under load and can't rack.

 

[niall Y]

It has a pleasing look to it and is simply another way to put together a workbench. There seems to be no real reason for the splay to the back of the bench support if it is to be placed against a wall. though it does make more sense if it is to stand in the middle of a workspace .And, I imagine the top overshooting the cabinet, makes it really easy to manhandle into position.

 

[Eshmiel]

It bothered me that I couldn't find rhyme or reason to this bench, so I went hunting for something-like and any info to be had about the design. It appears that it may be a poorly-realised example of an old Moravian workbench; and there is quite a lot about this design of bench out there.

From what's said and illustrated in various articles about this style of bench, it seems likely that it was designed and built primarily as a knock-down bench that could be easily moved to places where carpentry of various kinds was being done, rather than used from a permanent location in a workshop for all the cabinet-making jobs.

The undercarriage is made lightweight by having minimal members and a side-to-side splay of the legs intended, I think, to become more rigid as the weight of the top and the work done on it pressed downwards. It's easily disassembled via use of pegged through-tenon joints. The tool well on top is presumably there because there would be no workshop pegboard, cupboard or other tool-location positions if the bench was carted to a house window frame or part of a new barn. Necessary tools all in the well instead.

Benchtop wells have become rare in those cabinet-making benches that have a permanent position in a workshop. Although they might keep tools handy, they also serve as a sawdust trap; a risk that tool edges will clash and fracture; and a nuisance that gets in the way of workpieces as soon as the well has something in it that rises above bench top height.

Some of the Moravian bench designs do have a relatively narrow (front-to-back) working benchtop. This too might reflect their intent as primarily a carpentry bench on which longer but narrower pieces are those typically worked on, to become parts of windows, doors, skirtings, dado rails and all of the other parts that are used in first and second-fitting out a house or other building.

**********
Well, that's my guess.

Here's some links to further info:

https://eclecticmechanicals.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/themoravianworkbenchbywillmyers.pdf

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2020/04/18/workbench-tour-no-8-moravian-workbench/

https://woodandshop.com/moravian-workbench-tour/

***********
The bench for sale that prompted the OP to post looks like a poor example that was perhaps knocked up for a very particular worker and their intended jobs. It seems to have ended up as a workshop bench rather than a portable bench - and not much suited for the wider range of work that can be done in a workshop.

 

[Jacob]

It bothered me that I couldn't find rhyme or reason to this bench,

I couldn't see any reason to object to this conventional bench with a variation in the design of the base.

so I went hunting for something-like and any info to be had about the design. It appears that it may be a poorly-realised example of an old Moravian workbench; and there is quite a lot about this design of bench out there.

Almost no resemblance other than the splayed legs. The other details are common to many benches. The undercarriage is unusual as far as I know.

From what's said and illustrated in various articles about this style of bench, it seems likely that it was designed and built primarily as a knock-down bench that could be easily moved to places where carpentry of various kinds was being done, rather than used from a permanent location in a workshop for all the cabinet-making jobs.

The Portuguese bench is not designed as a knock down. Though maybe the top would lift off to make the whole thing more portable.

The undercarriage is made lightweight by having minimal members and a side-to-side splay of the legs intended, I think, to become more rigid as the weight of the top and the work done on it pressed downwards.

That what you get with splayed legs and why they are so common.

It's easily disassembled via use of pegged through-tenon joints.

Not the one we are looking at.

The tool well on top is presumably there because there would be no workshop pegboard, cupboard or other tool-location positions if the bench was carted to a house window frame or part of a new barn. Necessary tools all in the well instead.

Tool well is a common detail on benches everywhere, they are very useful - just for the tools for the job in hand, and other bits and bobs.

Benchtop wells have become rare in those cabinet-making benches that have a permanent position in a workshop.

Out of fashion you mean.

Although they might keep tools handy, they also serve as a sawdust trap;

Yep that's the whole idea. Bits and bobs, sawdust, chippings, pencils, screws, small tools, end up in the well instead of under the workpiece where they might leave a mark, or on the floor. And small tools kept conveniently to hand.

a risk that tool edges will clash and fracture; and a nuisance that gets in the way of workpieces as soon as the well has something in it that rises above bench top height.

I think one would notice this and move the thing accordingly! Small tools better in the well rather than on the work surface where they'd get in the way even more. Odd that I have to explain the use of the tool well which have been in use and appreciated for generations! I blame the magazines and various hack writers.

Some of the Moravian bench designs do have a relatively narrow (front-to-back) working benchtop. This too might reflect their intent as primarily a carpentry bench on which longer but narrower pieces are those typically worked on, to become parts of windows, doors, skirtings, dado rails and all of the other parts that are used in first and second-fitting out a house or other building.

**********
Well, that's my guess.

Most woodwork starts as long and narrow. But the tool well bench is effectively wide enough for wide pieces too, spanning over the well. Look at my pic of a trad bench above, this shows it more clearly.

Here's some links to further info:

https://eclecticmechanicals.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/themoravianworkbenchbywillmyers.pdf

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2020/04/18/workbench-tour-no-8-moravian-workbench/

https://woodandshop.com/moravian-workbench-tour/

***********

The other two are copies of the first one, which doesn't particularly resemble the Portuguese example in the first place

The bench for sale that prompted the OP to post looks like a poor example that was perhaps knocked up for a very particular worker and their intended jobs. It seems to have ended up as a workshop bench rather than a portable bench - and not much suited for the wider range of work that can be done in a workshop.

Can't see why you think that at all. Nothing poor about it. Obviously well made and looks like it was once a perfectly usable bench, quite conventional except for the splayed in sides.
Some over-thinking going on here!
PS forgot to add - there's several other huge advantages in having a well in the conventional fashion - firstly it's easier to construct, with less timber, secondly it's easier to flatten the narrow front beam and to match it the back apron, effectively making a wide flat support surface. I thought the flattening freaks would have cottoned on to that! A third less obvious advantage is that if the floor of the well is just a loose panel it can be lifted out and clamps can be used from either side of the front beam.

 

[TobyT]

I dropped in the link more for amusement on the price and hadn't really considered the construction. A couple of interesting bits spring out at me.

Firstly, it's been used a lot. I would have said as a school workbench as it is battered all over, except there are two troughs created by over sawing, one parallel to the vice and the other across it which indicates a regular activity. There is another faint one at the far end, perhaps where another student stood.

There's some form of slot behind the toolwell. Chisel storage perhaps?

I don't understand why the supporting structure is splayed. At the base it is no wider than the worktop, so why not just make vertical legs which would give more storage? Is this part original? It seems strange for a workshop item to be painted and rather well made when the top it supports shows no such care.

The drawer in the bench looks to be pinned together, as does the trim around it (again why on a workshop item?). The date is supposedly 1870, I'm certainly not knowledgable about these things but I wouldn't have thought they would be pinning things back then. Steel handle on a really old vice??

My opinion, based on little fact, and no expertise, is that this is a frankenbench knocked together from existing bits and probably passed down to the local school at some point. And/Or it's been sitting in someone's Portugese shed holding up paint pots for the last 20 years.

I've had an idea! My workbench was an old college one, and I have a few empty pots; if I move it to the wilderness area (aka the back garden which needs a lot doing to it), splash some tester paint pots around and put it on facebook I could make a bob or two.

 

[Jacob]

......

There's some form of slot behind the toolwell. Chisel storage perhaps?

Often seen in old pictures with a saw dropped in. A handy place to lodge them whilst on the job.

I don't understand why the supporting structure is splayed. At the base it is no wider than the worktop, so why not just make vertical legs which would give more storage?

Because storage is only an incidental advantage. The splay gives plenty of room around the bench, for your knees, clamps etc

Is this part original? It seems strange for a workshop item to be painted and rather well made when the top it supports shows no such care.

It was probably perfect when new. You wouldn't want paint on a worktop anyway.

The drawer in the bench looks to be pinned together, as does the trim around it (again why on a workshop item?).

Why not?

The date is supposedly 1870, I'm certainly not knowledgable about these things but I wouldn't have thought they would be pinning things back then. Steel handle on a really old vice??

Why not?

My opinion, based on little fact, and no expertise, is that this is a frankenbench knocked together from existing bits and probably passed down to the local school at some point. And/Or it's been sitting in someone's Portugese shed holding up paint pots for the last 20 years.

It's too good for a school and obviously been heavily used for many years

I've had an idea! My workbench was an old college one, and I have a few empty pots; if I move it to the wilderness area (aka the back garden which needs a lot doing to it), splash some tester paint pots around and put it on facebook I could make a bob or two.

This old bench looks nackered because it's old and well used. Difficult to fake.

 

[Eshmiel]

I dropped in the link more for amusement on the price and hadn't really considered the construction. A couple of interesting bits spring out at me.

Firstly, it's been used a lot. I would have said as a school workbench as it is battered all over, except there are two troughs created by over sawing, one parallel to the vice and the other across it which indicates a regular activity. There is another faint one at the far end, perhaps where another student stood.

There's some form of slot behind the toolwell. Chisel storage perhaps?

I don't understand why the supporting structure is splayed. At the base it is no wider than the worktop, so why not just make vertical legs which would give more storage? Is this part original? It seems strange for a workshop item to be painted and rather well made when the top it supports shows no such care.

The drawer in the bench looks to be pinned together, as does the trim around it (again why on a workshop item?). The date is supposedly 1870, I'm certainly not knowledgable about these things but I wouldn't have thought they would be pinning things back then. Steel handle on a really old vice??

My opinion, based on little fact, and no expertise, is that this is a frankenbench knocked together from existing bits and probably passed down to the local school at some point. And/Or it's been sitting in someone's Portugese shed holding up paint pots for the last 20 years.

I've had an idea! My workbench was an old college one, and I have a few empty pots; if I move it to the wilderness area (aka the back garden which needs a lot doing to it), splash some tester paint pots around and put it on facebook I could make a bob or two.

But perhaps Jacob can find the "Portuguese tradition" of this bench that will explain its peculiar and almost anti-functional aspects? The only thing I can find is this:

https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/t...s/antique-portuguese-workbench/id-f_32804502/

which exhibits a narrow-ish top with a tool well but is otherwise a standard undercarriage of the four vertical legs and a cupboard insert found in many standard bench designs.

Perhaps the maker of the quair olde bench (what's left of it) really was Dr Frankenstein, adding up various elements of bench design found at random to produce a thing not unlike his stitched-up collection of human body parts? But he's fictional. Mind, so is the description of that "bench" as a bench. Perhaps its a piece of Victorian then-modern art anticipating surrealism?

 

[Jacob]

But perhaps Jacob can find the "Portuguese tradition" of this bench

Why? It might be a one -off, though I doubt it. Keep googling you may find something similar.

that will explain its peculiar and almost anti-functional aspects?

Nothing non functional about it at all. The top is very conventional, the legs are splayed, that's all.

The only thing I can find is this:

https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/t...s/antique-portuguese-workbench/id-f_32804502/

which exhibits a narrow-ish top with a tool well but is otherwise a standard undercarriage of the four vertical legs and a cupboard insert found in many standard bench designs.

So what? It's fairly similar but heavily restored. Altered?

Perhaps the maker of the quair olde bench (what's left of it) really was Dr Frankenstein, adding up various elements of bench design found at random to produce a thing not unlike his stitched-up collection of human body parts? But he's fictional. Mind, so is the description of that "bench" as a bench. Perhaps its a piece of Victorian then-modern art anticipating surrealism?

You seem a bit worried about this bench. Can't help you at all!
I wonder if it was nautical, top and cabinet separable to make them easier to move about inside a ship? Wooden sailing ships were about the biggest and most elaborate wooden structures ever made and nothing would be beyond them in terms of woodwork. They tended to be very well equipped for woodwork maintenance, especially fighting ships.

 

[Eshmiel]

You seem a bit worried about this bench. Can't help you at all!

Yes, I might be missing a true gem, if only we could discover what that design was meant to cater to! On the other hand, there' nae room left in me shed. Even a new router cutter has to be squeezed in. (It is a whopper of a cove cutter with a 2" diameter, mind).

I wonder if it was nautical, top and cabinet separable to make them easier to move about inside a ship? Wooden sailing ships were about the biggest and most elaborate wooden structures ever made and nothing would be beyond them in terms of woodwork. They tended to be very well equipped for woodwork maintenance, especially fighting ships.

Now that's a good theory. As you say, there must have been many weird and wonderful woodworking implements needed or forced on the ship's carpenters by the nature of the ship. And Portugal was a great seafaring nation in the days of sail.

 

[Jacob]

Yes, I might be missing a true gem,

It's not that special. It's a very normal workbench with a few little quirks. Maybe just the maker doing it for show. Maybe particularly useful in certain circumstances

if only we could discover what that design was meant to cater to! On the other hand, there' nae room left in me shed. Even a new router cutter has to be squeezed in. (It is a whopper of a cove cutter with a 2" diameter, mind).

Don't buy it then! I'm not going to either.

Now that's a good theory. As you say, there must have been many weird and wonderful woodworking implements needed or forced on the ship's carpenters by the nature of the ship. And Portugal was a great seafaring nation in the days of sail.

It's not that weird and wonderful. It's just a bit quirky. I quite fancy the nautical explanation - it makes it a rational design.
PS if you want to understand work benches you could start with the simplest, a.k.a. the "Japanese planing beam". The trad British bench is very similar; with a large "beam" as the front piece where all the work is done, plus an apron and a well, all mounted on a stand.
Difficult to find a picture, they are all of modern woodworkers making "improved" versions. But here's one, basically just a joist with a planing stop on it.