Charnwood 619, can't square cut on left of blade!

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Gordon Moore

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Ringwood UK
This seems an odd one. Although still a bit of a newby with table saws, this is my first proper table saw, the last 3 were job site versions.

Decided to do a full strip down and blade alignment as I was trying to improve the dust collection (now better but still not great really)

Got the blade to within a tolerance of 0.05mm with a dial gauge measured against the left mitre slot.

Cutting from the right hand side with the rip fence was spot on, and using the right mitre slot with the stock mitre gauge, also spot on.

But here's the problem, cross cutting with the same gauge or the sliding table on the left of the blade, its so bad I can see the poor cut just looking at it.
I took a piece of ply about 120mm square and using a good edge to work from it starts off on my mark then the cut ends up moving out to the tune of approx 1.5mm by the end of the cut.
All the things I have checked or tried

Different blade
Removed the riving knife
No slop in the mitre gauge or the sliding table
Checked my square
Made sure the sliding table stays the same distance from the main table through all its travel (Although the problem is the same with the mitre gauge)

Just wondering if its my lack of experience and there's a glaringly obvious issue?

Many thanks

Gordon
 
If the cut is good from the
right the it should be the same from left, how much work is it to square the blade to the left ? If you can do this does it cut true both sides or does the cut run out on the right side? If yes then I’d suspect the left hand mite slot could of been milled incorrectly or the table top could be warped.. hope this helps.
 
I had to google a bit to see what the saw looked like. From what you say it is likely the slider is not in line with the blade and the slots in the cast iron top. I would say you have to align the slider slot with the blade and the table slot. It may require shims to get there if there is no adjustment for the slider.
Regards
John
 
It'll be something to do with the sliding table setup. You say you checked it against the edge of the table, but if the table edge isn't parallel to the blade, that'll be the problem. Mine has a little stopper button at the edge of the sliding table that can be adjusted for tweaking where 90 degrees is. Have you tried this?
 
If the cut is good from the
right the it should be the same from left, how much work is it to square the blade to the left ? If you can do this does it cut true both sides or does the cut run out on the right side? If yes then I’d suspect the left hand mite slot could of been milled incorrectly or the table top could be warped.. hope this helps.
Hi Bingy
When I set the blade up, I set it up on the left mitre slot which is one of the reasons I am so puzzled. then I used a checked set square to set up the sliding table cross bar and the mitre gauge and both are spot on to the blade
I will make a new dial gauge holder to check the right side to see, but this is the strange bit as on that side it seems to be cutting true
Also the the huge deviation seems odd too, over 1mm from 120mm cut
 
I had to google a bit to see what the saw looked like. From what you say it is likely the slider is not in line with the blade and the slots in the cast iron top. I would say you have to align the slider slot with the blade and the table slot. It may require shims to get there if there is no adjustment for the slider.
Regards
John
Hi John
I probably need to find a way to accurately measure the longer distance from the inside edge of the slider to the blade. I measured the gap between the main table and the slider table and easily within 0.1mm front to back. I will measure again over the blade distance. The whole slider mechanism is proper heavy duty with no slop from the runners
The blade was set accurately against the left mitre slot and yet using the mitre gauge in this slot also produces this same deviation as the slider.
It would suggest that the the blade is moving during the cut?
Thanks
Gordon
 
It'll be something to do with the sliding table setup. You say you checked it against the edge of the table, but if the table edge isn't parallel to the blade, that'll be the problem. Mine has a little stopper button at the edge of the sliding table that can be adjusted for tweaking where 90 degrees is. Have you tried this?
Thanks Mark
I set the sliding table up so that during its travel from front to back it was the same distance from the table edge. Then I set the cross bar to the blade using the adjustable button as you suggest and the set square is absolutely spot on to the blade which is why its such a head scratcher
I am going to measure the blade against the table edge to check. But the odd thing is, the blade is set up against the left slot and yet the mitre gauge gives the exact same error as the slider?
Regards

Gordon
 
I think you ought to be looking at the rails for the sliding table.I don't know the machine,but they all follow the same principles and it is absolutely essential that the rails are parallel to the saw.Having this correct comes before setting the crosscut fence square.
I'm also a bit concerned about the small size of your test piece,both from a safety aspect and the potential for error.A much larger test piece.Its not too hard to do a Pythagoras based calculation if you use a 600mm wide piece that is a touch over 800mm long,because if you trim it to 800mm,the diagonal ought to be 1000mm.As they say on the insurance adverts-Simples!
 
Hi Bingy
When I set the blade up, I set it up on the left mitre slot which is one of the reasons I am so puzzled. then I used a checked set square to set up the sliding table cross bar and the mitre gauge and both are spot on to the blade
I will make a new dial gauge holder to check the right side to see, but this is the strange bit as on that side it seems to be cutting true
Also the the huge deviation seems odd too, over 1mm from 120mm cut
As not an expert on propa table saws I just thought it strange for one side to be relatively accurate but not the other hence my advice- hope you get it sorted though as this would infuriate me - good luck 🤞
 
I think you ought to be looking at the rails for the sliding table.I don't know the machine,but they all follow the same principles and it is absolutely essential that the rails are parallel to the saw.Having this correct comes before setting the crosscut fence square.
I'm also a bit concerned about the small size of your test piece,both from a safety aspect and the potential for error.A much larger test piece.Its not too hard to do a Pythagoras based calculation if you use a 600mm wide piece that is a touch over 800mm long,because if you trim it to 800mm,the diagonal ought to be 1000mm.As they say on the insurance adverts-Simples!
Hi Worn
When I set up the sliding table, I used the holding rail adjustment to get it parallel to the table.
I have since managed to get another hour to study it this morning and couldn't help thinking it was a blade related issue as any cuts on the left seemed to be the issue. After some checking I realised that the vertical adjustment wheel was not very tight. So I adjusted the locking bar then to realise that the blade was going past the 90 degree point although I had checked that a few days ago. On inspection the "stop nut" on the adjusting thread was not properly locked down so it was moving slightly when adjusted against the stop.
I didn't have time to do any cuts but that's tomorrow

Thanks for the advice

Gordon
 
Well, after scratching my head still further, I think it might have ended up being a combination of the angle of the blade ( now sorted) and the riving knife.
Decided to remove the knife again after resetting the blade angle and the cut was significantly better.
On closer inspection the knife was out of shape and not flat, and it was also 2.7mm thick and the blades that came with the saw (second-hand) are 2.68 / 2.69mm. So a combination of virtually the same thickness and out of shape, despite numerous attempts to line it up.
Decided to purchase a new knife from Charnwood and seeing the replacement is 2.4mm and recommend a blade minimum of 2.6mm.
I thought a new blade would be in order to ensure I had covered everything, only to find that all the quality 50 / 60 tooth blades all seem to be 2.4mm or less in thickness!
Is this knife on the Charnwood particularly thick compared to more modern saws? (its the 8" blade model) or do I need to search more for a slightly thicker blade?

Regards

Gordon
 
I don’t have any suggestions for your problem Gordon, but I would be interested to know what you did to improve your dust extraction

I have the same saw and it always leaves a little pile of sawdust in front of the machine

I now have a ply base in the cabinet and use a sheet of magnet backed paper to cover the angle adjustement slots
 
My transition from a cabinet saw to a true slider took time, especially with setting up the sliding deck and the rip fence. Unlike the cabinet saw I used to have, the manufacturer's commissioning instructions for my SCM SC2C saw require all toe out adjustments to be made with reference to the same tooth on the blade, and not any part of the table. This can be a tedious process, depending on the number and location of the sliding deck mounting hardware.

The Charnwood W619 appears to be a cabinet saw with a sliding deck as an afterthought. True slider saws have the edge of the sliding deck a few millimeters from the blade and slightly higher than the fixed cast iron deck. However, if properly set up, I don't see any reason why you can't realize similar performance from the W619.

It is important to understand that setting up a slider saw is different than a cabinet saw. All measurements are relative to the blade, and not the chassis features, such as miter tracks. Also, the slider and the rip fence are never used at the same time. Since the sliding deck and rip fence are normally set with toe out relative to the blade, they will diverge from each other as the material is cut. A stop block on the rip fence can be used in conjunction with the slider as a reference point for repeated cuts, but the material being cut should not remain in contact with the rip fence once the cutting starts.

Setting up my SCM slider requires the following steps, in this order. You should be able to use some or all of them for the W619 as they apply.

1. Set sliding deck parallel to the fixed cast iron deck along the full length of travel. My saw has four mounting bolts that hold the sliding deck to the saw chassis. Making one adjustment affects all other adjustments, so patience and plenty of time are required.

2. Set the sliding deck height slightly above the cast iron deck. I set my sliding deck about 0.08mm (0.003") above the cast iron deck. This reduces the likelihood that the material on the offcut side will snag on the fixed deck. Setting the height can be done while making the sliding deck parallel to the fixed deck.

3. Set the toe out on the sliding deck for about 0.08mm. I use the same amount of toe out later for the rip fence. It is important to use the cutting edge of the same tooth on the saw blade for the measurements. I raise the blade to its full height and pick a tooth at random and mark it with a Sharpie. Then I rotate the blade so the dial gauge (clock, pointer thingy, whatever you want to call it) makes contact at the same point at both ends of travel. It is not necessary, or feasible, to measure the toe out at both extremes of the sliding deck travel, since this will require repositioning the dial gauge for each measurement. As long as the sliding deck rollers do not vary along the full length of travel, the short distance represented by the blade diameter will be adequate.

4. Set the crosscut fence on the slider using the five-cut method, or the Sam Blasco three cut method, with a large piece of mostly square MDF or flat 18mm plywood. I tried using 6mm plywood, but it was too flexible and wouldn't rest flat on the sliding deck. I use the Sam Blasco method because it's faster and haven't really gained much by chasing the accuracy of the five cut method. The first few times I followed up with the five cut method, but chasing that last .01mm of difference was not worth my time.
A. I start with a piece of 18mm MDF that is at least 1000mm on each side.​
Clamp the MDF to the sliding deck and cut a reference edge. I mark the reference edge with a Sharpie so I can ensure I always have the reference edge against the crosscut fence for the next steps.​
B. Rotate the MDF so the new reference edge is against the crosscut fence and align it with respect to the blade so a full width cut will be made instead of making a skimming cut. This will reduce the likelihood that the blade will wander. Clamp the MDF to the sliding deck and make the first cut.​
C. Flip the MDF over while keeping the reference cut against the crosscut fence. The first cut will now be on the left side. As with the first cut, align the wood so the blade will make a full width cut. Clamp the MDF to the sliding deck and make the second cut.​
D. Measure the width of the MDF at the reference edge and the trailing edge. Make any required adjustments to the crosscut fence and repeat steps B through D as required to ensure the measurements are the same.​

5. Set the toe out for the rip fence. I use the same 0.08mm reference for the rip fence toe out. On my saw, the toe out is set by adjusting the large bolts holding the large round bar that the fence knuckle rides on. This is not as tedious as the sliding deck, and I use a similar process by picking a tooth at random and using it for both measurements while sliding the dial gauge along the rip fence.

The first time I went through this process was with the SCM technician when he commissioned my saw. It took almost all day, as he would go through each of the steps above. After about two hours, when we were both satisfied with the results and the test cuts were good, he loosened all of the bolts and gave me the wrenches. I could have strangled him. Five or six hours later, I was done and he was satisfied. The next time I did this on my own, after I moved the saw, it took about four hours from start to finish.
 
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