Celebration of Craftsmanship

[Jacob]

.......
It is obvious, now you have pointed it out: measure twice, cut once, but make a rod, and never measure again seems even more sensible.

That's it, though don't need to be too purist about it - still use the tape as necessary!

I've had a quick Google, and I am now an expert in making fishing rods - need to reword my search terms, methinks.

Comes up as "story board, story stick" etc though there's not a lot of info and it can be confusing.
"Story stick" as far as I'm concerned means the vertical rod for a staircase (i.e. story height) taken from floor level at foot of stairs, to floor level at head. Foot not necessarily at same floor level as floor directly below the head, as there may be a bit of a slope. Having got that you divide it with, guess what, dividers, into equal 'risings' - though you will need to do a bit of a calc first to make sure it fits building regs.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Rods/story sticks become less mysterious when you think of them simply as one-dimensional templates (or templets as some - mostly older geezers than I - prefer) .....

I think that the boatbuilders/builders template-making technique using sticks is a little different - the stick being called a "joggle stick" and used (mutiple times) to make two measurements at once (range and bearing if you like) for each given point on the curve being templated.

http://www.builderbill-diy-help.com/joggle-stick.html

At the show, I did discover that some of the works on display had been made using CNC techniques and/or complex routing jigs - this did not spoil my enjoyment of them. Use of these methods probably sped up the construction process considerably - probably, in some cases, going from thousands of person-hours to hundreds I imagine - making some things practicable which otherwise might not be.

Cheers, W2S

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Joggle stick - another new concept for me, but by God that's clever. So obvious, now I've seen it. I shall make one today, and then try and fit a shelf somewhere odd, just because. (Actually, it's 40° today, so I may go to the beach instead. But spiritually, I will be fitting a randomly shaped shelf).

 

[Jacob]

.....
At the show, I did discover that some of the works on display had been made using CNC techniques and/or complex routing jigs - this did not spoil my enjoyment of them. Use of these methods probably sped up the construction process considerably - probably, in some cases, going from thousands of person-hours to hundreds I imagine - making some things practicable which otherwise might not be.

Cheers, W2S

I have my doubts.
I think a lot of people are reduced to using calculators, computers, Sketchup, CAD etc simply because they don't know how to do things the easy/traditional way. Gadgetry gone extreme!
Automated processes obviously benefit but not necessarily the one-off maker or small operator.

 

[AndyT]

.....
At the show, I did discover that some of the works on display had been made using CNC techniques and/or complex routing jigs - this did not spoil my enjoyment of them. Use of these methods probably sped up the construction process considerably - probably, in some cases, going from thousands of person-hours to hundreds I imagine - making some things practicable which otherwise might not be.

Cheers, W2S

I have my doubts.
I think a lot of people are reduced to using calculators, computers, Sketchup, CAD etc simply because they don't know how to do things the easy/traditional way. Gadgetry gone extreme!
Automated processes obviously benefit but not necessarily the one-off maker or small operator.

Jacob's point could easily apply for furniture made to established patterns, but here's my favourite counter example. It's a piece of furniture made using CNC machined plywood to come up with a design which would be quite impossible by ordinary methods.

I think it's a really clever, witty design, made with a real appreciation of the material and the construction.

You can see it at the V and A museum.

http://m.vam.ac.uk/item/O121769/cindere ... en-jeroen/

 

[Jacob]

.....
At the show, I did discover that some of the works on display had been made using CNC techniques and/or complex routing jigs - this did not spoil my enjoyment of them. Use of these methods probably sped up the construction process considerably - probably, in some cases, going from thousands of person-hours to hundreds I imagine - making some things practicable which otherwise might not be.

Cheers, W2S

I have my doubts.
I think a lot of people are reduced to using calculators, computers, Sketchup, CAD etc simply because they don't know how to do things the easy/traditional way. Gadgetry gone extreme!
Automated processes obviously benefit but not necessarily the one-off maker or small operator.

Jacob's point could easily apply for furniture made to established patterns, but here's my favourite counter example. It's a piece of furniture made using CNC machined plywood to come up with a design which would be quite impossible by ordinary methods.

I think it's a really clever, witty design, made with a real appreciation of the material and the construction.

Except it's ugly, useless, presumably very expensive, dependent on having some spectacularly expensive machinery, involves no craft skills at all. Good as a demo of what you can do with high tech, but the point is most stuff being made is low tech, hand made even.
So you can do weird things with CNC etc but sometimes you have to ask why bother? :lol:

 

[Trevanion]

So you can do weird things with CNC etc but sometimes you have to ask why bother? :lol:

If everyone had followed your philosophy of "why bother" and of doing things absolutely traditionally and stubbornly not accepting change we'd still be banging stones on trees and calling each other Ug.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Jacob - I understand that children are still (for the time being) taught handwriting - even though most of us communicate nowadays by physical/virtual keyboard or even (heaven forfend) speech (electronically mediated or otherwise).

We're all as free as we ever were to express ourselves (whether some think we're making/talking/writing garbage or not) but we are increasingly spoiled for choice of tools with which to do it! 8)

Cheers, W2S

 

[Jacob]

So you can do weird things with CNC etc but sometimes you have to ask why bother? :lol:

If everyone had followed your philosophy of "why bother" and of doing things absolutely traditionally and stubbornly not accepting change we'd still be banging stones on trees and calling each other Ug.

Not quite saying that am I?
I'm into making things traditionally, I also buy stuff from IKEA. The boundaries get confused perhaps.
Does "Celebration of Craftsmanship" celebrate the designers and makers of CNC machines and computers? They are the ones doing the craft work, enabling the users do less.

 

[woodbloke66]

Does "Celebration of Craftsmanship" celebrate the designers and makers of CNC machines and computers? They are the ones doing the craft work, enabling the users do less.

I think there's something here. There's nowt wrong with anyone using a CNC machine but to me it seems to be moving away from actual 'hands on' woodworking towards wood engineering, for example a certain well known box maker in Belfast has started to churn his stuff out (for Linley I think?) using a CNC machine. I used to follow what he was up to on InstaG, but since so much of his output is CNC'd it no longer interests me.

That said, there are incredible things that can be done using CNC techniques which would be well nigh impossible by traditional methods. Another chap on InstaG, this time in West London had a line of identical elliptical, fairly deep, bowls. When I queried how he'd done it (as it would be almost impossible to do on a standard lathe) the answer became apparent...he has a CNC machine - Rob

 

[topchippytom]

Looks a good show

 

[Jacob]

Does "Celebration of Craftsmanship" celebrate the designers and makers of CNC machines and computers? They are the ones doing the craft work, enabling the users do less.

I think there's something here. There's nowt wrong with anyone using a CNC machine but to me it seems to be moving away from actual 'hands on' woodworking towards wood engineering...........

I agree. "Celebration of Craftsmanship" perhaps should mean what it says; not "Celebration of CNC" or "Celebration of Computer aided design and manufacture". I'd ban it - but have a separate show by all means, I've nothing against it.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Does "Celebration of Craftsmanship" celebrate the designers and makers of CNC machines and computers? They are the ones doing the craft work, enabling the users do less.

I think there's something here. There's nowt wrong with anyone using a CNC machine but to me it seems to be moving away from actual 'hands on' woodworking towards wood engineering...........

I agree. "Celebration of Craftsmanship" perhaps should mean what it says; not "Celebration of CNC" or "Celebration of Computer aided design and manufacture". I'd ban it - but have a separate show by all means, I've nothing against it.

Jacob - just to be clear - the exhibition wasn't called "Celebration of Hand-Craftsmanship-Using-Only-Tools-Invented-Prior-To-The-Industrial-Revolution"!
:wink:

 

[Jacob]

.......
I think there's something here. There's nowt wrong with anyone using a CNC machine but to me it seems to be moving away from actual 'hands on' woodworking towards wood engineering...........

I agree. "Celebration of Craftsmanship" perhaps should mean what it says; not "Celebration of CNC" or "Celebration of Computer aided design and manufacture". I'd ban it - but have a separate show by all means, I've nothing against it.

Jacob - just to be clear - the exhibition wasn't called "Celebration of Hand-Craftsmanship-Using-Only-Tools-Invented-Prior-To-The-Industrial-Revolution"!
:wink:

"Craftsmanship" loosely implies "hand made, using hand and eye skills, etc", though the boundaries aren't clear. Otherwise IKEA should have a stall and they'd win all the prizes!

 

[woodbloke66]

"Craftsmanship" loosely implies "hand made, using hand and eye skills, etc", though the boundaries aren't clear. Otherwise IKEA should have a stall and they'd win all the prizes!

Yup, it's the old chestnut of the 'workmanship of risk' vs 'the workmanship of certainty' as Prof. David Pye was at pains to explain in his book. CNC work is in itself highly skilled, but it's a programmers skill rather than a woodworkers, so in CNC work the element of risk of a successful outcome is zero (there is no risk) whilst the workmanship of certainty of achieving a successful outcome is 100%. Once the programme is installed, tested and proven, a chimp simply presses 'go' to achieve a successful outcome.
IKEA and many other manufacturers like them use a huge range of technologies to lower the workmanship of risk, often at the expense of producing a decent product (which they do sometimes, surprisingly)- Rob

 

[Steve Maskery]

I think that is a bit harsh, Rob.

Back in the 80s I used to write post-processors for a CADCAM package that drove CNC machinery. All the people I ever met who operated these machines were skilled people and certainly would not like being called chimps.

A CNC machine in woodwork can do things that it would be difficult or even practically impossible to do by hand. There were door-panel examples of that at Cheltenham.

The argument, it seems to me, should be whether or not the end result is beautiful. It's no use producing something complex and flawless (from a shaping point of view) if it looks hideous, and that of course, is in the eye of the beholder.

I bet, 50 years ago, there were people making the same arguments about that new-fangled thing that everybody is going on about, what is it called, ah yes, I remember, the router.

 

[woodbloke66]

I think that is a bit harsh, Rob.

Back in the 80s I used to write post-processors for a CADCAM package that drove CNC machinery. All the people I ever met who operated these machines were skilled people and certainly would not like being called chimps.

A CNC machine in woodwork can do things that it would be difficult or even practically impossible to do by hand. There were door-panel examples of that at Cheltenham.

The argument, it seems to me, should be whether or not the end result is beautiful. It's no use producing something complex and flawless (from a shaping point of view) if it looks hideous, and that of course, is in the eye of the beholder.

I bet, 50 years ago, there were people making the same arguments about that new-fangled thing that everybody is going on about, what is it called, ah yes, I remember, the router.

You're probably right Steve and I apologise. My point that I was attempting to make (poorly) is that the skill is in the programming and once that has been achieved, tried and tested then a relatively unskilled operator could, let's say, on the (IKEA) factory floor, operate the CNC machinery to produce identical products 'ad infinitum'

I did say earlier in the thread (if you'd care to peruse back) that CNC machining can produce objects that are virtually impossible to produce by conventional means (ie identical elliptical bowls), but I do agree with your last statement.."...should be whether or not the end result is beautiful. It's no use producing something complex and flawless (from a shaping point of view) if it looks hideous, and that of course, is in the eye of the beholder."

I'd forget all about the router as well, definitely 'old skool' now, but what about this new fangled Festool Domino jobbie? It'll never catch on! :lol: - Rob

 

[Trevanion]

I worked alongside a massive 5-axis Maka CNC machine for a few months, £250,000 worth of kit by the time you've bought the machine, programs and tooling. The machine itself was excellent and you could knock out staircases all day every day if you really wanted to, but it didn't do that. The problem wasn't with the machine but the operator who was the boss of the company, he didn't really know a lot about computers or programming so he was really limiting himself and his company by being the sole operator of this machine. He never really worked in more than the 3 X-Y-Z axis whilst this machine could do very complex work in 5-axis no problem, it could do stuff that would be very difficult to replicate with standard machines or even by hand. The programs he wrote usually had some kind of error in them, I remember the machine was moulding handrails once and it would always without fail take a big gouge out of the handrail at the last 2 inches of the cut. He would've been better off getting young apprentice who had grown up with computers and was proficient in that kind of work through school and then send him off on a Maka CNC course to learn everything he could, come back and run the machine properly and far more efficiently.

So there is a lot of skill required for CNC woodworking, it's just a different skill-set than pushing a hand plane or chopping a mortice.

The first woodworking machines were actually developed for prisoners in the late 1700s to be able to hopefully bring them up to the standard of hand craftsmen of the time without the years and years of intense training and hand tool practice. Within a couple of years when the teething issues had been sorted these "unskilled" prisoners were producing work that far outclassed most craftsmen at the time.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

The exhibition was showcasing both skills in construction and in design. IKEA should quite rightly hold its head high in terms of the quality of design (in terms of design for manufacture as well as the intrinsic qualities of the product itself and yes, construction too) of some of its products. It's easy (if not Jacobesque) to be dismissive. Cheers, W2S 8)

 

[Yojevol]

I had the pleasure of going along to the exhibition again this year. I am fortunate in that I live nearby and can get there most years.
Betty Norbury started it 25 years ago and my first visit was in 1998. I've been most years and have saved the catalogues.
Betty's original concept was and remains, essentially a showcase for professional designers/makers in as much variety as possible. She needed a good title and CofC was an inspiration. She a also needed to attract two classes of the public, (a) people with an appreciation of excellence and funds available should they be tempted, and (b) Joe Public to pay an entrance fee to cover running costs. The former is achieved by an invitation only evening on the opening Friday. They get first choice.
It is interesting that the "and D" didn't appear in the title until about 2003 or 4 (l don't have the 2003 catalogue).
In thinking about the nature of this show I had a browse through some of the early catalogues. Compared with today's, exhibits are fairly simple with much Arts & Crafts influence evident. Craftsmanship was excellent of course.
About 5 or 6 years ago I remember being quite bored with little to attract me from a design point of view. I missed a couple of years but since then things have improved dramatically. I believe this due to CAD and CNC usage. I can recall several cabinet doors with repetitive patterns that would be difficult to achieve with conventional machine tools, let alone by hand. But behind the doors there is a wealth of superb craftsmanship in the making the cabinet.
Craftsmen have always used the technology available to them. I watched a documentary the other day on how the Egyptians built the pyramids using copper chisels........
So we shouldn't decry the use of the tools available. They are mostly being used by professionals who are just trying to make a living and getting a great deal of satisfaction out of it.
It's a great exhibition. It has a great variety of items, most of which do not rely on CNC. Most visitors, invitees or fare paying passengers, go and admire the design aspects; not worrying about how it was made. A fair number, like me, admire the craftsmanship. I'm the one down on my knees looking at the table structure or surreptitiously pulling a drawer out to admire the dovetails and sweet motion.

Here's looking forward to next year's Celebration
Brian