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graduate_owner

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Hi all.
Like most of you I have some cordless tools. Mine are Makita, still using NiCd. When charging the batteries there is a red light on the charger, and when the battery is fully charged the light turns green. So I used to walk over to the charger to check on the colour because apparently leaving the battery on charge doesn't do them any good. If red, wait a while, carry on woodworking, check again etc.
Duh.
It occured to me ( eventually) to stand the charger on end so I can see the colour of the light from wherever I am in the shed.

Posting this in case there is anybody else who, like me, might be a bit slow at times.

K
 
I don' know what truth there is in that - I've left mine (different batteries, NiCad NiMh and Li ion :D ) on charge for the last 25 years. I don't recall reading that you shouldn't.
 
Ni-Cd, Ni-Mh and Li-Ion you can leave on charge after fully charged as they all stop charging after they're fully charged.

Ni-Cd and Ni-Mh really need to be used till they're depleted unlike the Li-Ion batteries as they're not affected by memory.

I have changed nearly all my old style Makita battery tools for Lithium early last year. I still have a 12v Makita angle drill and a 9.6v Makita stapler. I can't justify replacing them yet.... :oops:
 
... they are affected by memory ...?

I remember my first Bosch (1994) where it suggested that it was wise to discharge the batteries completely half a dozen times when new but after that it didn't matter.
 
It's sometimes called memory effect( sometimes battery effect) and is derived from cyclic memory.

The battery seems to remember the smaller capacity.

That's why you used to see people onsite walking round with their finger on the trigger to deplete the batteries.

The NiMH batteries are not effected by this 'memory' but still suffer from crystalline formation on the plates.

The lithium batteries do away with all this.
 
The second sentence of your penultimate post doesn't read very clearly. It's not clear which are and aren't affected by memory. "unlike lithium batteries which aren't affected by memory" ... would be clearer.
 
Raymond UK":3ls79wth said:
It's sometimes called memory effect (sometimes battery effect) and is derived from cyclic memory. The battery seems to remember the smaller capacity.

It's an urban myth actually. It's true that there is a memory effect, but it's only been observed in communication satellite batteries (which used to be NiCd and may still be). Comms satellites are usually geostationary, meaning they are on an equatorial orbit, with a period of approx 24 hours, so they appear stationary in the sky when viewed from the Earth's surface.

The cell memory issue was caused because they went through extremely regular charge-discharge cycles as they orbited through the day and night sides of the planet. Here on the ground it's almost impossible to replicate that usage model (outside a lab).

There are two other issues, however, that do affect NiCds:

The first is poor cell matching in batteries and it applies to all rechargeable chemistries really. Each cell in a battery needs to have identical electrochemical performance to the others, so that they can be charged and discharged as a set*. In use, if there is a weaker cell, it will flatten first and then become a load on the rest of the battery (and the cell itself will suffer reverse charge to an extent, which will damage it further.

Once it's weakened, a normal charging routine will cause it to be overcharged before the rest of the cells are completely charged. Again this damages it further (water is electrolysed to hydrogen and oxygen, which are vented and don't recombine, so the cell slowly dries up). Once one cell dies, the whole battery usually becomes useless.

The second issue is dendrite formation. These are spiky crystals that grow between the plates in the cell. They are conductive, and will short out the cell once they get long enough.

It's often recommended that NiCd cells are stored in a fully discharged state, but I've used good quality cells (Saft) where the manufacturer specifically recommends not fully discharging them (I suspect this is because of the small risk of reverse polarization).

In both cases, the battery almost always suffers single-cell failure.

I'd expect that flattening them through an electric motor (the on-site behaviour you mention) would actually be counter-productive, as you'd wear out the battery more than you'd protect it.

The three reasons why Lithium ion batteries have taken over are:

1. better energy density overall, so more energy stored in a given space/weight,
2. a higher cell voltage (3.6V instead of 1.2V for NiCd), so fewer cells are needed,
3. Cadmium isn't used, so the cells are (theoretically) less polluting. In practice it's not quite that simple...

NiCds are generally more robust than Lithium ion, and don't usually catch fire or explode when damaged. "Wet" versions are still used in industrial applications, as they can be maintained (you add distilled water typically, much like a car battery). I'd happily re-cell my older NiCd batteries (I've done it a lot in the past), but I'd think twice about trying it with a lithium ion one.

HTH, E.

*I remember one very, very expensive battery system in the 1980s, which used a microcontroller in the battery to charge and monitor the individual cells separately. It worked extremely well, but IIRC, each battery pack cost over 1,000 quid and was for a very specialist, very high current application.
 
phil.p":3r8u1nhv said:
The second sentence of your penultimate post doesn't read very clearly. It's not clear which are and aren't affected by memory. "unlike lithium batteries which aren't affected by memory" ... would be clearer.

Sorry Phil,

English is not my first language and I'm still learning.
 
my ryobi charger has keyhole mounts on the base to enable wall mounting does your makita not have the same
 
I am of the belief that most of the cost in a cordless drill, is in the charger. I had a cheapo cordless and the charger was just a transformer and a battery holder. I left a battery on charge for a couple of days and the case melted. A more expensive drill usually has a smart charger so that shouldn't happen. However, I have a black and decker drill with 2 batteries and leave one on charge all the time. This has the basic charger and it works ok, so I think the first battery must have had an internal fault with it.
 
flying haggis":c4yw9d2x said:
my ryobi charger has keyhole mounts on the base to enable wall mounting does your makita not have the same

The old style Makita push in battery battery chargers don't. They just have 4 plastic feet. The battery might not stay in place if the charger was to be mounted at 90º.

Strangely, the new Makita 18v slide on battery battery chargers don't have mounts to enable them to be wall mounted, just rubber feet.

I bought a Makita 10.8v drill driver / impact driver set just to keep on the bench as they're lightweight for all day use compared to the 18v drills and that does come with keyholes for wall mounting. :?
 
Eric The Viking":3869j2g1 said:
Raymond UK":3869j2g1 said:
It's sometimes called memory effect (sometimes battery effect) and is derived from cyclic memory. The battery seems to remember the smaller capacity.

It's an urban myth actually. It's true that there is a memory effect, but it's only been observed in communication satellite batteries (which used to be NiCd and may still be). Comms satellites are usually geostationary, meaning they are on an equatorial orbit, with a period of approx 24 hours, so they appear stationary in the sky when viewed from the Earth's surface.

The cell memory issue was caused because they went through extremely regular charge-discharge cycles as they orbited through the day and night sides of the planet. Here on the ground it's almost impossible to replicate that usage model (outside a lab).

There are two other issues, however, that do affect NiCds:

The first is poor cell matching in batteries and it applies to all rechargeable chemistries really. Each cell in a battery needs to have identical electrochemical performance to the others, so that they can be charged and discharged as a set*. In use, if there is a weaker cell, it will flatten first and then become a load on the rest of the battery (and the cell itself will suffer reverse charge to an extent, which will damage it further.

Once it's weakened, a normal charging routine will cause it to be overcharged before the rest of the cells are completely charged. Again this damages it further (water is electrolysed to hydrogen and oxygen, which are vented and don't recombine, so the cell slowly dries up). Once one cell dies, the whole battery usually becomes useless.

The second issue is dendrite formation. These are spiky crystals that grow between the plates in the cell. They are conductive, and will short out the cell once they get long enough.

It's often recommended that NiCd cells are stored in a fully discharged state, but I've used good quality cells (Saft) where the manufacturer specifically recommends not fully discharging them (I suspect this is because of the small risk of reverse polarization).

In both cases, the battery almost always suffers single-cell failure.

I'd expect that flattening them through an electric motor (the on-site behaviour you mention) would actually be counter-productive, as you'd wear out the battery more than you'd protect it.

The three reasons why Lithium ion batteries have taken over are:

1. better energy density overall, so more energy stored in a given space/weight,
2. a higher cell voltage (3.6V instead of 1.2V for NiCd), so fewer cells are needed,
3. Cadmium isn't used, so the cells are (theoretically) less polluting. In practice it's not quite that simple...

NiCds are generally more robust than Lithium ion, and don't usually catch fire or explode when damaged. "Wet" versions are still used in industrial applications, as they can be maintained (you add distilled water typically, much like a car battery). I'd happily re-cell my older NiCd batteries (I've done it a lot in the past), but I'd think twice about trying it with a lithium ion one.

HTH, E.

*I remember one very, very expensive battery system in the 1980s, which used a microcontroller in the battery to charge and monitor the individual cells separately. It worked extremely well, but IIRC, each battery pack cost over 1,000 quid and was for a very specialist, very high current application.
I thought another reason was the slower/smaller self discharge characteristics of lithium cells. Might not be relevant to tradespeople, but certainly affects the weekend woodworker.
 
Not sure.
Experience suggests Lithium ion have a comparable self-discharge rate to NiCd. I have three 10.8V Bosch batteries ("12V" for the gullible), which are ageing, and now self-discharging quite quickly. They also have rather reduced capacity (on my list for replacement), which is frustrating in my most used power tools.

Certainly one good thing about Li cells is that you can leave them on the charger - it does no harm, whereas trickle-charging NiCd doesn't do them any good.
 
Eric's first post has loads of good information.
My personal experience of the self discharge is different though. I have nicad and nimh tools where the unused tools will be flat within a few weeks. I have upgraded a number of flashlights to lithium rechargeables and these hold a strong charge for over a year. Liion battery packs for cameras etc hold charge well too. This is supposed to be a strong point of lithiums.
Interestingly, i've read a research paper that describes some original research and found that for maximum life of liion cells, you shouldn't charge them 100% before putting them into storage. You can significantly increase the lifespan (pretty much double) by charging before they are flat and stopping when they reach about 2/3 full.
This is irrelevant to a guy trying to get through a job, but for less regular user, just don't give your packs a full charge before you put them away until next weekend, better to leave part discharged but not empty.

Oh - and don't trust the "batteryuniversity" website. It's been discredited. There's a full background on wikipedia :)
 
I wasn't aware of the discrediting of the Battery University site. Having read the Wikipedia stuff, I'm not totally convinced - it could be the sort of name-calling spat that crops up in these forums from time to time. For example, it seems one of the "myths" attributed to the BU site is pretty much what you cite below:
"Interestingly, i've read a research paper that describes some original research and found that for maximum life of liion cells, you shouldn't charge them 100% before putting them into storage. You can significantly increase the lifespan (pretty much double) by charging before they are flat and stopping when they reach about 2/3 full."

You also mention lower self-discharge rates for Li Ion, which is exactly why I posted the link to BU.

I've used information from the BU site for many years when incorporating Ni battery charging into various microprocessor products I've worked on with positive results. I have to say that I always stick to dedicated charging chips for Li, though.

But thanks for drawing my attention to the fact that the accuracy of BU is disputed. I will bear this in mind if I feel the need to consult the site in the future.
 
After your earlier post, I revisited BU site: It looks to have been extensively rewritten some time in the last few years, with a lot more attention to detail. Originally it certainly was a bit dodgy, but I *think* it's a lot better now. But I'm only an informed user, not any sort of expert, and my info is way out of date, as I'm no longer in an industry where battery life & performance is a critical issue.

Interestingly, my dad designed what we think was the first commercial "intelligent" NiCd charger for the radio controlled model market, back in the early 1970s. That used deep discharge, and current monitoring over the charging period, and it could successfully revitalize NiCd packs where capacity was beginning to fall off.

The Nagra charging system I referred to earlier simply charged cells individually, and IIRC, used the temperature change to detect the endpoint (each cell had a thermocouple). I'm also fairly certain the individual cells were carefully matched in battery production. It was very effective but hugely expensive. I've read that for NiCds, temperature change is the most accurate way of detecting full charge, but for Lithium ion cells it's a lot more complex .

E.
 
All my Makita chargers have rubber feet, no wall mounting holes. But I just lean them against the wall at an angle they are all the old NiCd ones. Still going strong, but I suppose I will have to join the Li ion club when these die. Li ion is getting cheaper all the time, so might not be too much of a problem. But until then, for the occasional user like me, NiCd will have to do

K
 

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